The Importance Of Throwing A Distraction

This is a discussion on The Importance Of Throwing A Distraction within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by target1911 That was the first thing i noticed and I agree totally. It will not take very much at all to knock ...

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Thread: The Importance Of Throwing A Distraction

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by target1911 View Post
    That was the first thing i noticed and I agree totally. It will not take very much at all to knock you off balance.....a curb, another person, and any number of things.
    When your feet are crossing like that, your footing is NOT solid.
    I can agree with moving at a 45deg angle and the distraction, but not the cross step.
    If you keep your footing solid, you will be able to step up on or off a curb, bump into an object (even something like a park bench) without even seeing it first, and not trip and fall or loose your balance. Therefor, you can keep your focus on the BG.
    So, we pretty much agree not to train with this guy for more than getting to the next level of Grand Theft Auto...

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  3. #32
    Member Array FLSquirrelHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Just chunk em a single bullet and tell them the next one will be much faster.
    ouch! my sides hurt

  4. #33
    Member Array FLSquirrelHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfClanMcnab View Post
    take your wallet or similar object of value, let them see it - and your look of fear - and then toss the wallet somewhat to the side as you move laterally away
    Sounds like good advice. If they wanted to kill me, I'd be shot already. They want money/stuff. Let 'em have some, and become a moving counterforce.

    Rather like sacrificing a rook to position for checkmate. The question "to run or to gun" is not dichotomous.

  5. #34
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    I'd think it'd be better to take one LONG step to the side while drawing, rather than essentially running away at a 45-degree angle with your upper body turned.

    The latter just sounds like a recipe for stumbling.

    Also, by stepping DIRECTLY to the side, you're altering the angle of deviation by TWICE as much with each step, and in half the time.

  6. #35
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
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    Greetings all…

    I would like to take some time and address some of the issues you have brought up regarding my video. I may or may not answer all of them, but I will address what I feel are the “most important” ones.

    If you are distracted by my hand movement in the video, what else are you going to be distracted by in the real world? People talk with their hands every day. Sorry that it bothers you, but that is just the kind of person that I am.

    Sergeant Mac
    Also, by stepping DIRECTLY to the side, you're altering the angle of deviation by TWICE as much with each step, and in half the time.
    Lateral movement DOES NOT create twice the distance as moving back at 45 degrees. In fact, it is just the other way around. If you are 10 feet away from the attacker and you move laterally 10 feet, you are now approximately 14 feet away from the attacker. If you move 10 feet back at 45 degrees, you are now approximately 19 feet away from the attacker. Your angle to the attacker may be greater but you are closer to the attacker. I feel the difference in distance is better than the angle. Moving back at 45 degrees gets you out of the kill zone 50% faster than by moving laterally and it gets you off the line of danger.

    People in general tend to knock what they do not understand or take the time to learn. People such as coaches, firearms instructors, etc. have never taken the time to truly understand or practice cross stepping. They don’t take the time to learn it and become good at it for whatever reason, and then “knock the footwork”. This may also be due to the egos that we all have. It is natural to try and discredit something you do not know or take the time to try it out. How many times have you had someone say “try it this way” and you only did it a few times and said something like, “It doesn’t work”. When in reality you didn’t take enough time to become good at it and find that it is indeed a valid way of doing things. Taking the “word” of others is a common mistake. I do not expect you to take “my word” for anything that I will ever share with you. It is YOUR JOB TO TRAIN with it and decide whether or not you are going to use it. Again, people follow people blindly including, pastors, authors, firearms instructors, etc., and this is a big mistake.

    Cross stepping has been around for hundreds of years. Ancient warriors of Japan such as the Samurai used this method of footwork when using swords, knives, or in unarmed combat. Please explain to me WHY it isn’t a valid method of footwork simply because I have a gun in my hand! I have been using the cross stepping method of footwork for nearly 20 years. I have yet to fall down even when moving away like demonstrated in the video. If you want to be a larger slow moving target, hey, that is your business. I can cover 21 feet of ground in about two seconds when cross stepping. That is only ½ to ¾ of a second slower than someone running full speed normally. I’d say that is pretty quick. So, in about four seconds I could be approximately 40 feet or more away. I don’t think that you could do that by using the step-n-drag or shuffling footwork, or even running backwards.

    In many cases creating distance quickly is your best bet for survival. The question is what is the best method of creating distance? When I cross step, I can also switch directions easily. If you cross step correctly, you ARE as on balance as you can be. How many of you are truly on balance when you walk? If you were, then you would never fall down. Most people are off balance when they walk. Have you ever watched a toddler learn to walk? They are literally falling forward and learn to catch themselves with their feet. As we grow older, we just become a little more graceful at “falling forward”. When a lot of people walk they are pretty much on there heel of one foot and the ball/toes of the other foot. Depending upon how you walk, you may only be on the heel of one foot or the toes of the other. How “on balance” are you really when you are walking? Have someone walk next to you and try to lightly push you to one side when you walk. More than likely you will go the direction of the push much easier than you think! WHY… because you are off balance when you walk.

    We are “Outside the box thinkers” and if you want to limit your training and options to what others (coaches or firearms instructors, etc.) tell you, then that is your right. I never said that cross stepping was “the way”, but rather A WAY to move. If it is not for you, then simply do not use it. It has been and will continue to be effective regardless of what “you” or anyone says! It just may not be what you want to use. And again, that is fine! I have heard all of the “arguments” before, and I have said the same things. I am not out to “convert” anyone, just providing options.

    As far as the distraction goes, it may or may not work. There are no guarantees. Just like there is no guarantee that you are going to survive in the fight long enough to ATTEMPT to draw your gun. And, just because you attempt to draw your gun does not mean that you will be able to get it out. And of course, there is no guarantee you will take the attacker immediately out of the fight! In fact, it is probably unlikely. The distraction as I presented it is only meant to POSSIBLY buy you a split second or more. So this stuff of I am over “acting” or whatever is ridiculous. You are going to tell me that if you saw something coming at your face that your natural reflexes wouldn’t be to turn your head or cover your face? I do it all the time when I think something is coming at me. It is called human nature. I don’t know many people who would just stand there and go… “Duh… I wonder what that is flying at my face. I guess I will wait until it hits me to find out…” Quite honestly, you don’t know how the attacker is going to react, and if you were honest with yourself, you don’t know exactly how you are going to react to the situation. You won’t know until you get there and it happens. But, your training should kick in if you have trained to handle the situation.


    Rob72
    2) Throwing with a non-dominant hand for most people is grossly inaccurate. Unless the BG is stunned with wonder at your chucking a handful of pennies 10 feet to his side, I wouldn't put much faith in that. I'm exaggerating, but not much.
    3) Too much hand-juggling. Metsubishi (basically the art of distraction) relies on surprise, which is best accomplished with economy of motion, not this right hand-left-hand-right-hand forward "Kiyyaa!" dance.
    Again, a lot of people are not willing to train enough to get good with their non dominant side to throw a distraction just like they are too lazy to shoot with their weak side. Both of these are obviously a training issue! In order for the distraction to be effective, you do not necessarily have to hit them! You just need to be in the “general ball park”. Too much hand juggling… that is pretty funny. Maybe you aren’t coordinated enough to do it, and that is cool.

    As far as my stance goes, it isn’t like I am going to just stand there like that. I would be moving around. In the actual DVD video I explain the purpose of the “stance”. It is not “the stance” but rather A STANCE. If you like something better, then use that. There are flaws in your stance as well! Again, you haven’t taken the time to understand the “stance” that I am using.


    OfClanMcnab
    Throwing an object into someone's face will instantly be perceived as a threat. Instead of giving you a moment to get your gun, you will be placing them in a higher state of alert, possibly causing them to shoot.
    Not necessarily true. It MAY OR MAY NOT! Each circumstance is different. There is no such thing as “one solution” to a confrontation. I believe in fighting “dirty” to win and come home to my family. You do what you want to do! The person doesn’t have to have a gun to utilize a distraction. If they have a knife it is the same technique/tactic. You draw your gun as you move WHILE you are throwing the distraction. You are NOT going to count on the distraction to work. BUT IF IT DOES, then it is to your advantage.

    Ten Ring
    If you have time to reach for something to throw as a distraction, you have time to draw your weapon......make sense?
    Our philosophy is to MOVE, DISTRACT AND DRAW your gun which is really one movement (Does that make sense?) There are two ways you can deliver a distraction. #1 Already have the distraction device in hand. #2 You are going to have to throw it from a pocket etc. I would prefer to have the device in hand. Just providing option #2 for those who are not prepared! So, you can still go for your gun. I believe I stated in the video that I would be moving while throwing the distraction and I am obviously drawing my gun ASAP.

    Train hard, train often, and train realistically.
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    Brian K. LaMaster
    Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC

  7. #36
    Member Array kd5nrh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLSquirrelHunter View Post
    Sounds like good advice. If they wanted to kill me, I'd be shot already. They want money/stuff. Let 'em have some, and become a moving counterforce.
    What, doesn't anybody smoke anymore? A lit cigarette headed for the face is a good distraction, and smoking gives you an excuse to stand around in the recently discussed "Jack Benny" stance that's good for defense, and for hiding a weapon already in-hand.

  8. #37
    Member Array markp's Avatar
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    My .02

    Yeah, the cross step looks nice in the video but you're in a hectacre of perfectly mowed grass. Give it a shot in an urban crowded urban environment under stress and you'll wind up tripping or running into traffic. Done under stress the cross step is very unlikely to work well you'd be better off just turning your back and running a dead sprint. Firing your weapon while on the move in while in cross step will cripple your accuracy. Any credible source I've read will state that if you decide to shoot you shoot as quickly/accurately as possible until the threat stops, doing this on the move will hinder speed and accuracy. Getting out of the zone as you say will work both ways, you'll lose more accuracy than them bc he's got his feet planted.

    I know you've thought about the situation bc you made a whole video about it but think about this.

    1. If you already know you'll be throwing a distraction and drawing you are acknowledging that the threat is great enough to draw. Thus you should just draw and be done with it, use both hands and give verbal commands. Throwing something will be considered the aggravating instance where YOU escalated the fight (this applies to attorneys, jury, and BG). Moving backwards like in a crowded area and you'll knock yourself out against a wall, building, car etc. You'll also be unable to determine who comes into your firing line bc you're always changing it and you can't see what is behind your head.

    Ayoob had a good comment on distractions but it was in a different scenario. He'd use a money discration to qualify if the BG meant harm of just wanted money. In your scenario it seemed like you already knew the guy meant harm thus you didn't need to qualify him anymore.

    We all have opinions, those are just mine.

  9. #38
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    I tend to agree on the cross-stepping as a problem for me...it's got to be what works for the individual...I always have OC in ready (weak hand) use...
    I have tried using the spray to test it's accuracy...damn, that stuff can really burn, and it doesn't take much to blow back at you...
    Many people carry spray and have never tired it...how far will it spray...what's the pattern like, etc.
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  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian@ITC View Post
    If you are distracted by my hand movement in the video, what else are you going to be distracted by in the real world? People talk with their hands every day. Sorry that it bothers you, but (1)that is just the kind of person that I am.

    Again, a lot of people are not willing to train enough to get good with their non dominant side to throw a distraction just like they are too lazy to shoot with their weak side. Both of these are obviously a training issue! In order for the distraction to be effective, you do not necessarily have to hit them! You just need to be in the “general ball park”. (2)Too much hand juggling… that is pretty funny. Maybe you aren’t coordinated enough to do it, and that is cool.
    Brian,
    Granted, this is just a "teaser" vid, but #1, having worked professionally with agressive individuals, and myself being unarmed, it tells me you're "hinky". If I saw you on the street, it would tell me I needed to increase the speed of my (assuming I'm an experienced BG) assault, and/or that you were going for something. Now,in context, that may be fine, it might convince me to disengage before initiating. Whether I was a BG or first response, it would tell me something was coming, and a handful of change or a roll pennies would not be a surprise.

    #2, you may run this in class, against students of varying skill levels, that isn't clear, but having seen (and done) a few takedown charges, if you don't get something in my face (urine was partially effective in slowing me down ) it won't do much.

    Cross-stepping, I have issues with, for a vairety of reasons, the first being that I have had occassion to run down someone using it, the second being that I personally found a lateral run (keeping the BG in peripheral view) faster and more sure for me personally. Again, training might change my mind, but I do have some movement experience, and not getting shot is a fantasitic motivator to choose a fumble-free mode of locomotion.

    I won't take other issue, since I do recognize the limitations of internet vid, and not wanting to participate in a debate of issues that can only be grounded in FOF and personal interaction.

  11. #40
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
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    Thanks for all of the feedback because I love seeing things from different perspectives. It is important to understand that our way is NOT "the way" to do things.

    First of all, you have to understand that the “stance” I used was explained on the actual DVD. This stance is EXAGGERATED for a reason for instructional purposes. If I am talking to you and I have one hand out talking to you and another reaching for something such as my wallet, or maybe my hand was already there for whatever reason, it isn’t going to necessarily look like I am up to something IF you do it the way it is intended. On the other hand, taking a defensive posture could put the attacker on alert which MAY be to your advantage.

    If you catch someone by surprise by throwing something at them, it does work if you get it around their face. People don’t know what you are throwing and I don’t know one single person that would just stand there and get hit in the face and then say, oh, that was a cell phone and that hurt. Just like a bright flashlight being shinned in your eyes, it is unlikely you are just going to stand there without trying to shield your eyes in some way. Not once did I say that you HAD to reach into your pocket, ideally the distraction would be in hand. If you do things correctly they CAN work. However, you NEVER should count on the distraction working!!! If it does, great! If not, oh well, you need to keep moving and do what needs to be done.

    People cross step everyday and do not realize it. I have seen people from Gunsite on Personal Defense TV do it and not necessarily teach it, but they do it. Cross stepping is not for everyone. But I would encourage people to train on it for a while because it is a VERY VALID method of footwork and can get you out of the situation faster than the sidestep or step-n-drag as some people call it.

    Again, the distraction that is thrown is meant to only be an option if you feel that it is to your benefit. I would rather be able to hit you in the throat, eyes, or kneecaps as my distraction because I know that I can take the fight out of you much more quickly while I draw my gun. The distraction as shown in the teaser video was ONE of the distraction methods we use.

    Train hard, train often, and train realistically.
    Brian K. LaMaster
    President, Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
    Instructor, Counter Force International
    http://www.right2defend.com
    http://www.modernwarriortalk.com

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    In times of extreme stress, KISS! I think throwing the distraction item distracts you nearly as much as the BG.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  13. #42
    Member Array echo5tango's Avatar
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    one thing that screamed loudly to me was the lack of verbalized commands. maybe it's just me, but when you're reaching for and throwing your distraction that's a great time to loudly verbalize "STOP!" "LEAVE ME ALONE!" "GET AWAY FROM ME!" or something along those lines. sounds hinky, i know, but verbal commands can be quite effective.

    one thing about the "cross stepping" ... in the slow-motion demonstration, it's quite obvious you are cross stepping; however, in the actual live demo, you don't actually seem to be cross stepping as your feet are pointed in your intended direction (the same way we walk and run every day). IMO moving with your feet pointed in your intended direction is arguably the quickest and most sure-footed method of conveyance.

  14. #43
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    If I understood the video the trainer indicated that the distraction was to cause the "attacker" to temporarily lose focus. Two points here... One: Distraction was overstated in the video. Two: If it is an "attack", then the threat of possible bodily harm or death is assumed. That being said, if armed, why retreat and open your range thus making it less of a chance of hitting the BG? If you can distract enough to draw, then put your weapon closer as you fire and assure yourself of threat elimination. It has been stated in an FBI study that of all their study cases of trained officers in shootouts, were at distances of less than 20 feet(most being inside 10 feet) had only about 20% hits. In most cases the officers used one or more clips. So why would a CCW citizen want to open the distance? Also, if you have to fire as a response to BG pulling a weapon, it seems shooting on the run makes it even more difficult to bring your weapon to bear accurately to eliminate the threat. Whatdya think?
    If a BG's life problem is trying to impose his violent criminal intent upon me or my loved ones, then I will be the solution to that problem.

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  15. #44
    Member Array echo5tango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostrider1949 View Post
    If I understood the video the trainer indicated that the distraction was to cause the "attacker" to temporarily lose focus. Two points here... One: Distraction was overstated in the video. Two: If it is an "attack", then the threat of possible bodily harm or death is assumed. That being said, if armed, why retreat and open your range thus making it less of a chance of hitting the BG? If you can distract enough to draw, then put your weapon closer as you fire and assure yourself of threat elimination. It has been stated in an FBI study that of all their study cases of trained officers in shootouts, were at distances of less than 20 feet(most being inside 10 feet) had only about 20% hits. In most cases the officers used one or more clips. So why would a CCW citizen want to open the distance? Also, if you have to fire as a response to BG pulling a weapon, it seems shooting on the run makes it even more difficult to bring your weapon to bear accurately to eliminate the threat. Whatdya think?
    i understand where you're coming from but disagree ... distance = survival

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