Detained by security guard
This is a discussion on Detained by security guard within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A few years ago the mall had some rule that anyone under the age of 14 or 15 had to have adult supervision. Well, first ...
May 13th, 2005 09:25 PM
A few years ago the mall had some rule that anyone under the age of 14 or 15 had to have adult supervision. Well, first off, not too many people under 15 carry ID (learner's permit), even then a lot of 15yos dont have it.
One day, as I was walking into the mall, I got carded. Carded again around the corner. Carded again coming out of the store, which was around that corner. Said the hell with it, decided to leave, got carded again, by the same guy that carded me on the way in. After pointing out that he had carded me 15 or 20 minutes ago, he got an attitude. So I got an attitude. Then his got worse. Then mine got worse. Then I had the two others that carded me over there, and they brought their attitudes. Thats a lot of testosterone... By the time I was saying "F YOU! F YOU! and F YOU TOO!" a uniformed (OD?) APD officer stepped in, and got the testosterone level down. I was 17 or 18 at the time. Unlike most guys that are 14, I had a full beard, which is why I think one reason the officer took my side, getting carded four times in about 20 minutes, twice by the same guy, certainly didnt hurt.
Thats not the only run-in I had with the rentacops at the mall, but it was the worst. Maybe thats why I'm so uncooperative.
Someting like a TV or car battery that wont fit in the bag, sure, I dont mind handing over my receipt so they can make sure I'm not stealing it. Assuming its not a membership store (like Sam's), I'm not gonna let them check my bag unless I set the alarm off. They can yell all they want, I'm just gonna keep walking. If they have PC to detain me, they can call the police, I'll wait by the front door depending on their attitude. If someone puts a hand on me, it will be removed.
Sorry fellas, but I have little respect for department store rentacops. You can thank the guys at the Asheville Mall.
May 13th, 2005 10:01 PM
Before this thread goes any farther, I would like to point out that we have at least one person on this site whose job involves "loss prevention". (aka busting shoplifters)
I just want to say that I have no problem with 99% of security guards. But like the stories on here I have seen them go to far. I have no trouble at all with someone who is professionsal, and acts like it. It is the rookie with an attitude that scares me.
May 13th, 2005 10:17 PM
I've got to say something here.
I worked retail for 4 years. I have seen so much scum sucking human crap steal thousands of dollars worth of stuff. On one occassion I ran out into a fenced in yard and asked two gentlemen what the hell they thought they were doing throwing merchandise over the fence.
But we didn't fight with security or brute force. We fought with superior intelligence. Our weapons were a state of the art surveillance system and a team of employees trained to be wide awake.
I personally never touched a customer. I did have occassion however to stand in a doorway and demand a receipt. I offered to check bags as a courtesy to keep the customer from having to present each item on the list to me.
You do it like this: "Good evening sir. Did you find everything you needed today? That's great. Could I just verify that receipt super quick so you can be on your way? I'll even check the bag for you to speed this up. After I'm done will you need assistance loading this up?"
You're doing three things here. #1. You're slowing them down so the LP guy can do his job better #2. You're giving service #3. You make it sound like they're getting some kind of VIP treatment.
Then if they object:
"Oh I know it sir. Isn't it terrible we have to be treated like this in a public place because a few bad apples ruin it for everybody?"
This is classic verbal judo. You're displacing the anger. They're not mad at you or the store any more they're mad at shoplifters.
I did have a couple of hard sells. You aren't going to show me a receipt? I'm not moving then. Want to lay a hand on me? Okay genius I'm surrounded by 200 pound guys and we're all wearing the same color uniform and we're recording the whole thing too. We're a bunch of roughnecks and the nearest police car is never more than 400 feet away. Your move.
They caved, and got help loading their stuff too.
This shoplifting crap costs you more than you know. Don't make some poor college kid making $6.50 an hour get his blood pressure up because you're too stubborn to do a simple thing.
May 13th, 2005 11:43 PM
i had a rentacop building security 'officer' try to stop me last summer when i was leaving my office building. he followed me out well past the property lines to catch up to me. apparently he thought i had no business being in the building.
he demanded to see ID. i refused. he then told me "you may as well show your ID, as the police are already on their way". which only made me more adamant. why would he call police because he saw someone leaving a building? so i pressed him on the issue. then he did radio in to his headquarters to call the police. i laughed. he was lying. so i told him i was going on my way and when police showed up tell them i went that way.
it would have been great if he had tried to physically stop me.
as far as retail mall rentacops are concerned, i'm kind of torn on that issue. for starters, i've never seen any of them hassle anyone that didnt deserve it, so i'm pretty safe on that front. but considering that over half the rentacops are armed (from the malls to the theaters) i'm not sure how much trouble i would give them if they did hassle me.
May 14th, 2005 06:47 AM
You just confirmed my point. I only have one problem with your statement.
I don't know why but that rubs me the wrong way. I understand that you need to be able to detain a BG. However I still think I would be peeved off if that happened to me. Then again I usually have no problem showing someone what is in my bag if the alarm goes off either. If they refused to let me by after that, I might have to demand that they call that cop sitting 400ft away and lets do this whole thing in front of their customers.
You aren't going to show me a receipt? I'm not moving then. Want to lay a hand on me? Okay genius I'm surrounded by 200 pound guys and we're all wearing the same color uniform and we're recording the whole thing too.
May 14th, 2005 07:11 AM
I've asked if they're holding me on felony charges before, and if they were aware what would happen if they were wrong and I pressed charges for false arrest and kidnapping.
Every store employee I've dealt with has backed down at that point.
Usually I ask the security dudes who may follow me around if they'd like to get a few things on my list for me if they're going to take an interest in me, so they might as well help with shopping.
I can understand the need for security, don't get me wrong - I do open and close a gun shop on a somewhat regular basis. However, I've only held one person, and that was for attempted theft of a firearm from a secured case.
It's a matter of privacy - if someone asks me what's in my bag, I tell them to go ask the clerk I just bought it from. A store that becomes too intrusive loses my business.
I've gotten treated like a criminal enough by merchants for having done nothing wrong on enough occasions when I was far younger to not put up with it now that I know my rights and am willing to stand up for them.
Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.
May 14th, 2005 08:36 AM
Hmmm. It seems that in Ky they do have the authority to detain you.
433.236 Detention and arrest of shoplifting suspect.
From Kentucky Revised Statutes
(1) A peace officer, security agent of a mercantile establishment, merchant or merchant's
employee who has probable cause for believing that goods held for sale by the
merchant have been unlawfully taken by a person may take the person into custody
and detain him in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time, on the
premises of the mercantile establishment or off the premises of the mercantile
establishment, if the persons enumerated in this section are in fresh pursuit, for any
or all of the following purposes:
(a) To request identification;
(b) To verify such identification;
(c) To make reasonable inquiry as to whether such person has in his possession
unpurchased merchandise, and to make reasonable investigation of the
ownership of such merchandise;
(d) To recover or attempt to recover goods taken from the mercantile
establishment by such person, or by others accompanying him;
(e) To inform a peace officer or law enforcement agency of the detention of the
person and to surrender the person to the custody of a peace officer, and in the
case of a minor, to inform the parents, guardian, or other person having
custody of that minor of his detention, in addition to surrendering the minor to
the custody of a peace officer.
(2) The recovery of goods taken from the mercantile establishment by the person
detained or by others shall not limit the right of the persons named in subsection (1)
of this section to detain such person for peace officers or otherwise accomplish the
purposes of subsection (1).
(3) Any peace officer may arrest without warrant any person he has probable cause for
believing has committed larceny in retail or wholesale establishments.
Effective: June 17, 1978
History: Amended 1978 Ky. Acts ch. 75, sec. 1, effective June 17, 1978. -- Amended
1968 Ky. Acts ch. 49, sec. 2. -- Created 1958 Ky. Acts ch. 11, sec. 2.
May 15th, 2005 07:17 AM
A few brief comments: My son is a department manager at a Lowe's.
1. Their LP (Loss Prevention) works closely with the local LEO agencies and will only detain as long as the suspect is on Lowe's property.
2. Switching expenisve items into like boxes of lower priced items is old hat. Most tools and housewares are covered by cameras.
3. Lowe's will pay a bounty to any employee who discovers a shoplifter and properly reports it. Of course LP and the local LEO must then get involved.
May 15th, 2005 09:48 AM
Tell the rent a cop to call the real LEO's immedately.
If s/he doesn't, walk away. If the Mall cop lays a hand on you deck his/her ass or call the real LEO to report an assault.
NEVER, EVER go to the "Security Office"
When the real Leos' show up file charges of unlawful detention.
Never threaten to use your weapon and don't let anyobdy take it from you.
Mall and store security can be really scary. They don't have a clue what they're doing.
Last edited by AirForceShooter; May 15th, 2005 at 09:51 AM.
Gun control is hitting what you aim at
May 24th, 2005 03:25 PM
Hmmmm. I'd be interested as to what "reasonable detention" is, as defined by the courts. I know some States/Counties will allow CLEET certified guards to be deputized, in which case they are the same as PD. If KY gives that kind of authority to the average Mall Ninja(non-deputized), without specific training requirements, I'd be scared.
Originally Posted by GoodSamaritan
That's really pretty sweeping, if you really read it. Basically, if you say "no" to anything the guard requests, you'll be there, "at their pleasure".
May 25th, 2005 08:01 AM
If I am carrying and accused of shoplifting?
I tell them to call the cops and I call my lawyer.
May 28th, 2005 07:42 AM
May 28th, 2005 10:21 AM
In cases such as these, it is CRITICALLY important to know your state laws!
In MA, merchants have a statutory right to detain anyone suspected of shoplifting. I haven't read the law in detail, but it sounds like a "super citizen's arrest" type of authority. MANY store/mall security people are sworn in as Special Police here by the communities they are in. Thus, they have full police powers on store/mall property. BUT, they have NO training (nothing required by law). Scary, for sure.
So, if you resist one of these people detaining you, you CAN be criminally charged and it will likely stick! [Also MA law makes any assault & battery as a lifetime disqualifier from every handling, possessing, etc. any firearms/ammo! It then becomes a Federal offense if you are ever found in possession of a weapon after even a $25 fine for such an offense! And yes, I know of cases where local chiefs have turned folks over to BATF for such "offenses" here.] Another thing to be aware of in MA, an arrest is NEVER EXPUNGED even if mistaken identity and released! [Only a Governor's pardon will expunge an arrest record, takes years and lots of donations to campaigns to get this.]
Best solution is be reasonably cooperative, call the real police, and if it is an unjust detention, get a lawyer and sue their ass off.
Be careful out there and know YOUR laws!
May 22nd, 2007 11:54 AM
thats not true according to idaho state code. A public offense includes misdemeanors.
Originally Posted by rfurtkamp
ARREST, BY WHOM AND HOW MADE
19-604. WHEN PRIVATE PERSON MAY ARREST. A private person may arrest
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause
for believing the person arrested to have committed it.
. A crime or public offense is an act
committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it, and to
which is annexed, upon conviction, either of the following punishments:
4. Removal from office; or
5. Disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or
profit in this state.
May 22nd, 2007 11:58 AM
your asking for a felony charge if deck a licensed uniformed security officer being from florida.
Originally Posted by AirForceShooter
784.07 Assault or battery of law enforcement officers, firefighters, emergency medical care providers, public transit employees or agents, or other specified officers; reclassification of offenses; minimum sentences.--
Whenever any person is charged with knowingly committing an assault or battery upon a law enforcement officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical care provider, a traffic accident investigation officer as described in s. 316.640, a nonsworn law enforcement agency employee who is certified as an agency inspector, blood alcohol analyst, or a breath test operator while such employee is in uniform and engaged in processing, testing, evaluating, analyzing, or transporting a person who is detained or under arrest for DUI, a traffic infraction enforcement officer as described in s. 316.640, a parking enforcement specialist as defined in s. 316.640, a person licensed as a security officer as defined in s. 493.6101 and wearing a uniform that bears at least one patch or emblem that is visible at all times that clearly identifies the employing agency and that clearly identifies the person as a licensed security officer, or a security officer employed by the board of trustees of a community college, while the officer, firefighter, emergency medical care provider, intake officer, traffic accident investigation officer, traffic infraction enforcement officer, inspector, analyst, operator, parking enforcement specialist, public transit employee or agent, or security officer is engaged in the lawful performance of his or her duties, the offense for which the person is charged shall be reclassified as follows:
(a) In the case of assault, from a misdemeanor of the second degree to a misdemeanor of the first degree.
(b) In the case of battery, from a misdemeanor of the first degree to a felony of the third degree.
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