Detained by security guard

This is a discussion on Detained by security guard within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As a "rent a cop" I can say. 1. If I detain you you are most guilty. 2. Learn your states laws about shopkeeper/ private ...

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  1. #31
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    As a "rent a cop" I can say.

    1. If I detain you you are most guilty.
    2. Learn your states laws about shopkeeper/ private store rights to detain
    3. don't get belligerent or mouthy(I know the cops alot better than you do)
    4. Keeping your cool and letting PD and LP do their job. If you are innocent you can civilly sue if you really feel that persecuted.
    5. If you reach for a weapon, expect to get hurt.
    6. If you feel worried about being framed , agree to sit inside the store and wait for PD. Most stores have good video coverage.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    As a "rent a cop" I can say.

    1. If I detain you you are most guilty.
    2. Learn your states laws about shopkeeper/ private store rights to detain
    3. don't get belligerent or mouthy(I know the cops alot better than you do)
    4. Keeping your cool and letting PD and LP do their job. If you are innocent you can civilly sue if you really feel that persecuted.
    5. If you reach for a weapon, expect to get hurt.
    6. If you feel worried about being framed , agree to sit inside the store and wait for PD. Most stores have good video coverage.
    I understand your side but I disagree

    1. Then I have nothing to worry about because I don't steal. I am sure there are cases of mistaken accusations though as made in the hypothetical situation. Everyone makes mistakes, nobody is perfect.

    2. The laws in my state say "reasonable force" that does not mean you have the right to slam me to the ground and use force to detain me if you suspect me of stealing a small item. Reasonable does not give you the right to go all Steven Segal on someone.

    3. How do you know the person you are detaining is not a lawyer, or know the police better than you do ( I am just using the hypothetical situation posed)

    4. If I have done nothing nobody will infringe my rights

    5. How do you know the person reaching for the weapon isn't and ex operator that can take YOUR life in a moment. Even worse a socipoath who has no regard for human life. Is your salary/job worth losing your life or getting seriously injured over a shoplifting incident?

    6. What would you do if they insisten on detaining you in a back room ? I.E. two guards forcibly moving you to the back?

    Sorry to stereotype and slam security guards as I am sure there are good ones but most I have encountered, including the ones I work with have the SWAT mentality and think they are going to kick doors down and slam people around and the security badge gives them the right to do whatever they want. I always tell them one day they are going to push someone too far and they need to realize that someone stealing a 20 dollar item is not worth their lives.

  4. #33
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    I am not going to submit to any search unless a duly sworn police officer is presenting me with a signed and valid warrant for a search of my person, and valid means the warrant must specifically list the items to be searched for as this is a requirement for a warrant to be valid. Most folks don't know that.
    I'm reaching back 2 years to point this out, but a police officer most certainly DOES NOT need a warrant to search you for a weapon. Look up "Terry stops" if you aren't familiar with them already (and you should be).

    In the suspected shoplifting scenario, you have already taken care of the fist element of the Terry stop - reasonable suspicion that a crime has taken place, is taking place, or is about to take place. The second part - reasonable suspicion that you are armed - might be trickier, but it is not that difficult to articulate. The old "bulge under the shirt," the fact that you said you had a weapon... :)
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  5. #34
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    I am an Allied Barton Security Officer for the local mall. It is a shame to see some questionable security officers/guards/lpo/etc, but there are some well trained people there as well.

    If the Security Officers follow policy (our policy, of course) alot of "what ifs" get removed from the situation. The most common call to respond to I get is for assisting tenants with shop lifters. The tenants get upset because we don't go into their stores, but rather stand outside of their entries and observe and report --- we only go in if physical violence ensues. This removes us from any possible legal issues since we didn't see anything happen

    There are different actions we take for different situations, of course. What we do if a store calls us is rather limited, but even if we are the ones who spotted it the policy calls for a "no touch, no chase" policy. Even though I am new with Allied Barton, I am typically the one called to approach the shoplifters. It mostly has to deal with that I have the most training, and that I know how to talk to people.

    It really depends on the situation, but I will never touch a person unless physical violence has happened; there is no need to touch anybody or treat them like they are scum; if the PD wants to go that route, I'll be around to assist, but I am not there for that sort of work.

    I've personally found handling most shoplifters to be a simple ordeal; present who I am, and why I am there (politely, of course); explain that the police are on the way (If the person looks like they could be a problem, I make sure to not approach the person until absolutely necessary); explain to them that we have their actions video recorded; and finally, I ask them if they would like to wait in the store, or a private location with multiple cameras and mics focused on them (our security office).

    I refuse to defend any Security Officer/guard/lpo/etc that isn't doing their job correctly. I am content with the fact that I am doing my job to the best of my abilities and the training I have received has more than helped me out already.

    You have to understand, Allied Barton didn't just hand me a badge and say, "now go walk around;" they covered use of force, local laws, mall policy, natural disasters, theft, pandemic flues, medical practices (simple CPR, AED training, etc), firefighting, investigation, and civil liability... That was just my basic training. Since there is more training available, I am also working on increasing my training by taking MSO training.

    Long story short (ha) a properly trained security officer/guard/lpo/etc won't be pulling the sort of stunts some of you have mentioned. The best thing to do in that situation is make sure the LEO's are contacted; explain your rights (and for gods sake, make sure you know them... Alot of people think they do, but they don't) and try to stay calm and polite. Those few things will go along way in making a wrong situation right. :)
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    As a "rent a cop" I can say.

    1. If I detain you you are most guilty.
    2. Learn your states laws about shopkeeper/ private store rights to detain
    3. don't get belligerent or mouthy(I know the cops alot better than you do)
    4. Keeping your cool and letting PD and LP do their job. If you are innocent you can civilly sue if you really feel that persecuted.
    5. If you reach for a weapon, expect to get hurt.
    6. If you feel worried about being framed , agree to sit inside the store and wait for PD. Most stores have good video coverage.

    Rocky, just from what i know of you here you are not the guy I'm worried about. However, several years ago I walked into a Super Kmart. I was in my on duty in my EMS uniform. Ambulance parked right out front. As I walk in, the alarm goes off (that pair of steel toe boots was always doing that). Joe Loss Prevention guy tells me to "hold on buddy, step over here for a minute, sir" and starts moving toward me, pointing to a spot next to him. I just continued walking and said "dude, do you think I'm gonna leave some valuable merchandise behind?" He began to persist, but someone else (manager? LP boss?) called him off.

    I'm not out to give someone a hard time, but don't give me one either. Correct me if I'm wrong Rocky, but as I recall from my security guy days MI recognizes a SG as only a private citizen. I've never done retail security, but I believe they have to see you pocket something personally to detain. Alarm going off is no justification to forcibly detain? If they detain you it;s false arrest, and I believe people have won signifacant suits over the humiliation of people seeing them detained wrongfully. Also, I believe I read somewhere about a case (in MI) where security guy got beaten up by someone he tried to wrongfully detain, and it was found to be perfectly legal self defense.

    Not saying I would go to these extremes, only stating what I recall to be relevant to MI.
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  7. #36
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    I do hotel security on the beach here in Panama City. We are allowed to detain people for security reasons, but we have leverage: we can evict those who don't comply with us or our rules. Most people comply, some run off. Depending on what they did, I will/will not chase them. Usually, if they're running to a room, I just let them do it and catch which room it was on the cameras. But in one instance we had a guy vandalize some snack machines (broke the glass using a fire extinguisher, stole money, and snacks).. I chased him clear across the property and he got his ass tackled up against a brick wall down the block.

    We have some guys that climb balconies and such, and throw things off balconies as well. We detain them if need be until the police arrive, or just let them stay in the room if they didn't take off.. then the police show up at the door and they're evicted.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodSamaritan View Post
    A recent thread gave me the Idea for a couple of threads so here goes the first one.

    Lets say you are in a large department store, Sears/Wal Mart/ etc etc.

    As you start to leave a guard approaches you and demands that hand over your bad,
    What's a bad?

  9. #38
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    I Agree On This...

    Quote Originally Posted by AirForceShooter View Post
    Tell the rent a cop to call the real LEO's immedately.
    If s/he doesn't, walk away. If the Mall cop lays a hand on you deck his/her ass or call the real LEO to report an assault.
    NEVER, EVER go to the "Security Office"
    When the real Leos' show up file charges of unlawful detention.
    Never threaten to use your weapon and don't let anyobdy take it from you.
    Mall and store security can be really scary. They don't have a clue what they're doing.

    AFS
    I would be very polite, as mistakes can happen...but...I would never go to a private area or back office. I'll wait in the front of the store, if that was where I was stopped. No one is going to search me without LE present. Don't put any hands on me as that's where my smile changes...
    I would make no threats; I would answer questions about an incident. ID?...to LE only...

    Can't imagine being stopped...I'm usually pretty low-key, and in shorts and a T...(Where could I hide a chain saw?)

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  10. #39
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    I would say "I understand what you have to do but, I will not go into the back office with you. I will however wait right here in full view of the public while we wait for the police to arrive. Then if you still want you can search my bags and my person." then if they do not call the PD I will.

    I'm not going to be a jerk or anything but I am also not going into the back office where they could accuse me of doing anything including threatening them with my gun if they found out I was armed. I will stay where there are lots of witnesses.
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  11. #40
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    As long as the person I detain is being reasonable , I will not escalate a situation. If you want to wait in the store common are, fine.
    MI law says if you flee and evade you can be charged with additional crimes. Yes some security act foolishly, but anyone doing so will eventually
    1. get sued
    2. get fired
    I am all for acting reasonable by both parties. Use common sense if you (unlikely ) get stopped by security and it should turn out just fine. Most agencies /stores have guidelines that are stricter than state law before a stop can be initiated. If I stop you , I have already made my court case.
    AZchevy, yes someone may very well be tougher, faster , better than me. But I will go down fighting if a weapon is drawn/ fighting ensues. I do NOT initiate physical confrontations, but am prepared to defend myself.
    Honestly, I doubt many , if any CC holders will get stopped. The most likely reason I can think of is someone new to CC'ing , fiddling with their carry gun/rig.
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  12. #41
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    My response would be to tell the fellow: "Please address any further conversation to my attorney here.", as I point to my wife...

    I would refuse a search until law enforcement arrived on the scene. I would not attempt to flee, but I would not permit them to lay a hand on me, to search me, or to confiscate any weapons I might have on my person.

    If they at any time violated the "reasonable" guidelines that case law associates with RCW 4.24.220, I'd have my wife tear them a new one, though the actual damages would be quite small. I'm just a vengeful guy when it comes to this sort of thing :-)

  13. #42
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    When I was younger, stupider, and more impetuous (but just about as big as I am now) I had a mall security guard stop me, not by asking me to stop by by forcefully grabbing ahold of my arm with one hand with the other on his mag-lite and yelling "You're coming with me!". Once I turned around and saw his smaller frame beset only by an enormous gut, and once I ascertained that he wasn't a police officer (hey...I was dumb...but not that dumb), I flared up my shoulders, looked down into his eyes and said

    "You can call the police if you'd like, but if you don't move your arm I'm going to break it."

    He was pretty quick to let go.


    In hindsight it was a bad idea. If I had gotten into a scuffle with him that little phrase probably would have cost me alot...luckily it didn't come to that. The case of mistaken identity did get me a $20 mall gift card though.


    That being said, I would react in a similar manner, with a more polite demeanor today. If they ask to detain me I would tell them that they have no right to do so but that if they would like to contact the police I will gladly wait outside the store, off of their premises for a peace officer at which time I'd be happy to cooperate with that officer's investigation of whatever $5 crap trinket they're accusing me of having taken. Then I'd walk out the door and wouldn't go back.

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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodSamaritan View Post
    Lets say you are in a large department store, Sears/Wal Mart/ etc etc. As you start to leave a guard approaches you and demands that hand over your bad, and follow him into the office. You are carrying in an area where it is legal ...
    Stay in the open, in full public view. Remain calm and simply get to the bottom of what the accusation is. Gettin' the back up might well end up with the face down, and that's not in my best interest. Assist by showing I'm not the one being sought, but not ever to the degree of disarming, following to a spot out of public view. In other words: lookie, no touchie. If wax in the ears, then getting on the horn with a disinterested third party (LEO) is called for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean View Post

    I did have a couple of hard sells. You aren't going to show me a receipt? I'm not moving then. Want to lay a hand on me? Okay genius I'm surrounded by 200 pound guys and we're all wearing the same color uniform and we're recording the whole thing too. We're a bunch of roughnecks and the nearest police car is never more than 400 feet away. Your move.

    They caved, and got help loading their stuff too.
    Ok for some reason this peeves me. I don't break the law. I'll show my receipt. And I understand your doing your job. But I think this might not turn out the way you hope. I'm not directing this at you personally because I know your one of the good guys. I just think your putting too much faith in your back up guys.

    I would prob. be polite and excuse myself past you. If anyone touched me I would touch them back. If your not a cop you'll get spanked. Or at least apply a liberal dose of OC then call the cops myself. The camera footage will be priceless in court of 3 security guys trying to detain a business man in dress clothes. Like I said this isn't personally directed to you just stating my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldo0506 View Post
    If I am carrying and accused of shoplifting?

    I tell them to call the cops and I call my lawyer.
    I might take it one step further. *I* would call the cops and ask for a response since someone is illegally detaining me. Even if I'm in a state where they can legally detain me, since I am no shoplifter I know they have absolutely no probable cause for a detention thus I know that they are illegally detaining me. It's me who has the probable cause against them.

    I would of course *never* allow myself to be brought into a private office. I would stay in public where others can be witnesses until LEO shows up.

    Thanks!
    Greg

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