Emptying out your shed - Page 3

Emptying out your shed

This is a discussion on Emptying out your shed within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Before civil rights and aclu, situations like this were often resolved quietly, without outside help, and no questions. The BG just "went away". It's a ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Geezer's Avatar
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    Oh, for the good ol'days

    Before civil rights and aclu, situations like this were often resolved quietly, without outside help, and no questions. The BG just "went away". It's a shame that a person's right to defend his property has to include consideration of the probability of losing your shirt as a result. However, I would probably confront them with a 12 gage, and hope that the bore size and my attitude would be sufficient to stop the action. They can run if they wish, but their vehicle belongs to me. Years ago, we caught some poachers on our hunting lease. When they returned to their truck, they had five flats, and was two miles from the road. No questions were ever asked.


  2. #32
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    Yes Geezer as a kid growing up in a poor neighborhood with familys that came from all over Europe we got along very well. I cannot remember a breakin or someone getting beatup or hurt. The reason was simple, we had large family members who would take care of any situation that even looked like it was wrong for our street. No one went on your property, they knock on the front gate or door if it could be reached. Everyone had shotguns and hunting dogs or just dogs. Usually a guy had fair warning he was stepping over the line.
    As you slide down the banister of life,
    May the splinters never point the wrong way.
    ---
    NRA Life Member

  3. #33
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    The way it was explained to me in Virginia it is all what you can articulate. For example, if I see them and go out to confront them and subsequently wind up in a fight for my life, I am in the wrong. Self defense won't apply because I have escalated the situation in defense of property.

    Say I happen to be taking the dogs out to pee and happen to encounter said BGs cleaning out my shed, which leads to a fight for my life. Well I was minding my own business taking out my doggies and these BGs ambushed me. I had no idea they were there. I had to defend myself and that was that.

    Now will I require the services of someone with Esquire following their name? Possibly, it really depends on the LEOs and the prosecutor.

    -Scott-

  4. #34
    Member Array Deke45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott
    Now will I require the services of someone with Esquire following their name? Possibly, it really depends on the LEOs and the prosecutor.-Scott-
    And maybe the witnesses...or lack there of!

    Kimber Ultra CDP Elite STS II

    A gun is a tool...the real weapon is between your ears!

  5. #35
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    The bikers have an expression. "No matter how many times you spin around, your butt's behind you."

    Simply, you have to live with you, forever.

    I'm sure it would sound really macho to drop the hammer on a burglar going through your rakes and bug repellant. But we all know a petty criminal is not hung from a yard arm.

    I never thought Clint Eastwood got enough credit for filming the human experience. In 'Unforgiven' he tells a young kid trying to guzzle his problems away that it's a hard thing killing someone. "Taking all a man is and is ever going to be."

    I don't care about PC attitudes, what Sarah Brady thinks or what brand of chrome polish all of the cool kids are using.

    But I would always remember the look in the eyes of a young robber holding my stolen garden hose as I apply ten pounds of pressure to an eight-pound Glock trigger. And so would you.

  6. #36
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    Anxious trigger finger.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tourist
    I'm sure it would sound really macho to drop the hammer on a burglar going through your rakes and bug repellant. But we all know a petty criminal is not hung from a yard arm.
    By the justice system, no.

    It leaves it up to the citizens, at least in this state, the ability to stop the crime in progress up to and including lethal force. Perhaps that's why people don't have their sheds rifled all that often.

    But I would always remember the look in the eyes of a young robber holding my stolen garden hose as I apply ten pounds of pressure to an eight-pound Glock trigger. And so would you.
    For you, perhaps. I don't make that claim for anybody else.

    I know that it hasn't bothered me. I'm troubled more by the times I should have done something when I was younger but didn't.

    We all have our own ghosts. What they are and what form they take varies.

    I'm reminded of the later climax of "Unforgiven", myself - "We've all got it comin', kid."

    Those who flagrantly break the law should hope that those who are more restricted by a continuum of force are the first responder in this state. It's one of the reasons I moved here. I don't want to have to cower in the corner, or retreat, or do anything of that nature I don't have to do unless it's by choice.

    I look at it this way: killing a man may take away everything he's ever going to be, but if that same man is taking my things, he's killing me a piece at a time.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    I think I'm with Geezer and FortyFive. In my case they would have to be breaking into my garage or the backyard. Assuming I have the time, and no one else is home, I would find their car (if possible), take down the license plate #, flatten a tire and/or puncture the radiator. If other family members are home, they go out the opposite side of the house from the crooks and in any case the cops get called. If there is enough light and time, I video/photo the chuckleheads. If I get a blow off answer from the local police, I think I would point out to my 65 lb dog that there are people who don't belong in his backyard that he should bark at (he's just a big friendly dope, but THEY don't know that), while I get the gun nearest to me. If they collectively have two brain cells to rub together, they go away without any drama on my part, and the cops have an easy job. If they shoot at my dog inside my house (in this scenario) they get shot in return. If they try to enter my house, they have crossed the line & are fair game (and Florida law backs me up, Thank God).

    Thanks for this scenario, it has made me think something like this over. I would not shoot someone over stealing my stuff, but I sure won't just sit back and let them have an easy time taking it.

  9. #39
    Member Array Moondoggie's Avatar
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    Been there, done that.

    Caught 2 guys coming out of my detached garage/workshop at 4 AM. My wife & I were both armed. The cops had already been called before the BG's made their exit from the garage into my flashlight beam right between their eyes. My having been a DI in the Marines may have had something to do with them automatically obeying my terse commands to assume the position. I also said "I'm looking at you across the top of a .45 automatic, and I'm not putting up with any BS." BG #1 said "OK, you got it." That's where they stayed until the LE arrived...only about 90 seconds later. The first deputy around the corner of the house said "Wow, you've done all of the work for us."


    I had described myself & wife to the dispatcher & told her that we were both armed. When the second deputy arrived a few seconds after the first, I said "You tell us when you want us to put the guns away." "He said, now is OK...thanks."

    Cuffed, stuffed & charged with residential burglary...garage counts in AZ.

    Had they ran I would not have fired...but I don't think they knew that.

    The most annoying part of the whole episode was responding to all of the victim's rights letters over the next couple of years.
    If you ain't the lead dog, the view never changes.

  10. #40
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    Had they ran I would not have fired...but I don't think they knew that.
    May I ask you why you would have held fire?

    Fear of prosecution?

    Ethics?

    Fear of retaliation?

    Fear of cost of litigation?

  11. #41
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    Tourist - as I would read that - if they had not and did not present a threat, so you could say "I feared for my life" - then in many states - bad juju!

    We discussed this sorta thing in that thread on holding perp's at gun point - pretty much deciding that we had to let em go - if no threat.

    So yeah - from here I see legal as main barrier. Some ethical too maybe for some.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  12. #42
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    P95,

    In all debates, not just this one, it is my opinion that your ethical core comes first--before any action. If you truly believe in good ideals, then it is impossible for you to act brazenly.

    I think moral men don't take 'cheap shots.' We know when we're in danger, and when danger is present, but not an immediate possible action. Col. Cooper makes this explanation in discussing conditions yellow and orange. If some townie is boring me to death telling me and everyone within ear-shot what he's going to do to me, that's a shift from yellow to orange; there's a need for concern, but not action.

    A guy leaving your shed with your favorite barbeque tongs might cause an orange state of mind. He's a criminal, no doubt here. There's a crime being commited, red-handed.

    But "dead or alive you're coming with me," while a nice sentiment, lacks ethics in action. This is my point of view here.

    However, if he switches his intent from using those tongs from 'spoils to weaponry,' and begins an attack, I say that ethics have been met and we now must seek center mass.

  13. #43
    Member Array Moondoggie's Avatar
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    Tourist, sorry not to reply right away...I shut the 'puter down due to thunderstorms shortly after my post.

    All of your reasons not to shoot apply... Ethics being the number 1.

    I would not kill someone over property. Nor would I likely shoot someone in the back.

    If these two would have ran I probably would have given chase & taken one of them down with a smack in the back of the head. I know the technique/tgt to strike. Since I'd only been retired from the Marines about 2 yrs at this time, and I was still running 5 mi several times a week there's no way either of them was gonna outrun me. As far as hand-to-hand went, I considered myself the equal of pretty much anybody at that time.

    I also had no worries about my wife shooting someone inappropriately...or missing if she decided to shoot.

    OK, here's the rest of the story. Both guys were clad only in cutoffs. Both were drunk to the max. One (Nick) was the son of a neighbor home from grad school who I'd never met, the other was his buddy from college. His Mom was out of town, and when the cops went over to her house they found a 9mm & 12 ga laying on the sidewalk by the front porch...both loaded. The front door was open, so the cops cleared the house & told me that there were pics of Nick on the wall. Cops secured the house and took the firearms, logging them as "found property" after recieving instructions to do so over the radio. Apparantly, in their drunken stupor they decided to go looking for some tools to do something at Mom's house...they weren't sure what, but thought there were probably some tools in my garage. The other guy promptly passed-out when placed in the back seat and awoke very much later that day in county lockup with zero idea where he was or why he was there. Charges against him were dropped with our consent.

    The next day I find out from the neighbor across the street what the deal was with the firearms. This neighbor had a party that night...Nick was there. Neighbor had a daughter (major babe) who Nick had dated a couple of times several yrs ago. Daughter was there with a Marine. Nick caused a drunken scene, went home & returned with shotgun & pistol threatening mayhem over the fair maiden (who he hadn't seen/talked to in over 2 yrs). He got talked down, & sent on his way (group hug!). County atty found out about this & did some interviews.

    End result, Nick got 6 yrs intensive probation, mandatory D&A counselling, anger mgt counselling, and prohibited from possessing firearms during probation. It was his first offense. Fortunately for everybody, he left the guns at home instead of sticking the pistol in his waistband. Armed residential burglary is a whole different level of problems...plus what might have happened when I confronted them.
    If you ain't the lead dog, the view never changes.

  14. #44
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    'doggie,

    And that's the whole point. Will the 'aggressor' (in your case, that label is used in the broadest sense) be a credible threat or just some neighborhood kid off on the wrong track?

    The answer is 'credible threat.' It doesn't sound like this guy was 'The Karate Kid' or a SEAL or even an extreme fighter. He was a 'guy.' Some schmuck who is actually less dangerous when drunk. Heck, talking him down could have put him to sleep.

    The pistol becomes the wild card. Liquor lowers your inhibitions, and a verbal slight with usually no consequence might have set this guy off on a shooting spree.

    Same guy, same set of parameters, but add a pistol and there are two clear and distinct outcomes that you, as a reasonable man, must discern for a proper reaction. This is a very serious debate.

  15. #45
    Member Array Moondoggie's Avatar
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    Tourist, you raise good points.

    To be honest, I've thought about this many times, and it serves as a great example of how situations are not always be what they seem, and they can change. BTW, I had no alcohol in my system.

    For instance, what if Nick would have ran to his front yard (200 yds) with me in pursuit? I'm chasing what I think is an unarmed stranger toward a neighbor's house at 4 AM, suddenly he bends down and picks up a 12 ga or 9mm from the sidewalk. Whoa!!! Now, I'm (unknowingly) on HIS property involved in a gunfight. This could be pretty hard to explain! Had this come to pass, I'd very likely be in big trouble with the law.

    There are so many variables that could have occured. That's my point in explaining all of this...you never know what's gonna happen next.

    When this started, I had gone outside to investigate after our dogs are raising cain & my wife looks out and says "Two guys just went in the side door of the garage." I quickly dressed, armed myself, got cordless phone, and went outside while connecting to 911. I could hear the two conversing inside the garage, and moved to a good defensive position to cover the only exit. My wife was also in a defensive position to back me up. My plan was to wait for the LEO's, but the two "BG's" exited before they arrived.

    Despite having served in the Marines for 26 yrs, and also as a reserve LEO, I recognize that one of my options was to have just stayed inside and waited for the LEO's to arrive and handle it. However, at the time, going to investigate was a natural function of my personality. I recognized at the time that being armed and outside with LE on the way was putting myself somewhat at risk. I've had plenty of training and experience, I'm confident that I would not have fired unless it was justified..ditto for my wife. (I'm sure the LEO's had their hackels raised after being told by dispatch that the homeowner & spouse were armed and outside...the first deputy approached quietly and waited a little while in the driveway listening to me verbally "control" the suspects before he rounded the corner of the house...announcing himself first. A very "heads-up" professional guy!)

    You are absolutely right in pointing out that situations like this can be unpredictable. I was mentally prepared for confronting someone possibly armed and possibly under the influence. Still, there were variables that I could have never imagined. Fortunately, it all worked out OK.
    If you ain't the lead dog, the view never changes.

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