What to do with your family when there is little to no cover?

This is a discussion on What to do with your family when there is little to no cover? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; That will completely change the dynamic of a scenario like the one described is to be able to shoot on the move. When I was ...

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Thread: What to do with your family when there is little to no cover?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    One of the best techniques anyone can learn...

    That will completely change the dynamic of a scenario like the one described is to be able to shoot on the move. When I was in IPSC back in the '90s, I learned to shoot accurately with a handgun, shotgun or rifle at a dead run; To practice this, I used to set up 12 IPSC targets at progressive distances 50 yards apart. My AR-15 was slung across my back, the Remington 1100 was in my hands and my 1911 in the holster. The first targets (3) were at 25 yards. When the buzzer went off, I immediately took off at a dead run, firing 2 rounds at each IPSC target using slugs; After I passed the targets, I left a piece padded carpet on the ground, where I would lose the shotgun and transition to the rifle. I would then engage the next targets at 75 yards, and 150 yards still running with the AR. when I passed the targets at 150 yards, I would re-sling it on the run and transition to my 1911, engaging the final set of targets with 2 rounds each. The object was to place all rounds in the "A" zone of each IPSC target. Sometimes, I would change things up by going for head shots with the rifle at 150 yards, then moving to engage the rest, etc. but usually, the drill I just described would flat wear you out, but teach you volumes of how to move and shoot on the run. I rate being able to shoot accurately on the move as one of those quintessential skills of the Master shooter. A good drill you can practice with a handgun is to simply set a target at 25 yards, and start moving towards the target while shooting.

    Anyway, just my .02c
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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  3. #32
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    in my idea of the "ideal", i'd hit prone (unless he's close) and light him up while the wife and kids ran 135 degrees away. if he was close i'd run 225 degrees away while suppressing.

    truth of it is, you won't have any time to think about this stuff or to coordinate it when it happens. you'll need to train it as a battle drill for it to work in the real world.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink Actually...

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    Ex, isn't it true that movement attracts attention? I will say that the scenario is a BG threatening several people (mass shooter type) and under the assumption that if I move, I will get the BG's attention (Specially if I am shooting back at him) I would have my family stay put. Hopefully I will either hit the guy (unlikely depending on movement and distance) or force him to take cover, waste his ammo and make him lose track of my loved ones. After that, maybe everything ends up in a stalemate (neither side moves until PD arrives) with me playing Pop Goes The Weasel or the BG decides it is better to run away.
    It is all hypothetical mind you. Nobody can say what will happen and we all know that the best laid plans go to hell after the first shot is fired.
    You've almost got it, Miggy. Only LATERAL movement catches the eye. That's why we were trained to probe enemy positions always straight in and straight out and very slow.

    Until I'm sure my family is safe, I'm screening their movement out of the AO and I'm not drawing fire to them by shooting on the move which is problematic at best in a crowded environment to have any sort of accuracy. I don't think I could bear it if one of my shots took out a little kid. I'll get the family safe then I'll re-engage to help the others IF and only IF the cavalry hasn't arrived. Although my first duty is to my family; I have a duty to the sheep. If the wolves are loose, I couldn't in good conscience leave the to their fate. Even though a good many of them would act to take the means I'm using to defend them. ~SIGH~

    They are what they are.... and I am what I am.......
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink Rangers LEAD THE WAY!

    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    When the buzzer went off, I immediately took off at a dead run, firing 2 rounds at each IPSC target using slugs; After I passed the targets, I left a piece padded carpet on the ground, where I would lose the shotgun and transition to the rifle. I would then engage the next targets at 75 yards, and 150 yards still running with the AR. when I passed the targets at 150 yards, I would re-sling it on the run and transition to my 1911, engaging the final set of targets with 2 rounds each. The object was to place all rounds in the "A" zone of each IPSC target.
    Been working out with one of the Ranger Battalions have we? Well when you hit 50 do it again and report back here. Me? I would have a major coronary within 30 yards. 20 if it's a really hot day. Miggy can vouch for that fact. Your little exercise really does apply to the group of soldiers I mentioned above, but there are not too many in my IDPA Club that could pull it off. I'm guessing the cops and the Feds would be challenged. As for the rest of us? FOHGETTABODIT!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #35
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    Ex, neither you nor me drive that far!
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
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  7. #36
    Senior Member Array sheepdog's Avatar
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    well aimed shots, no spray and pray.
    I think the supressive fire issue has been covered. I'll add a couple of minor opinions: No prone, no kneeling, you just made a better target for low incoming and ricocheting rounds.
    Main point: The absolute BEST cover in the world (when you don't have fixed cover) is your front sight. Get exactly behind it and place it exactly between your eye and where you want your bullet to go. Getting behind that little sliver of metal has stopped some bad things from happening...with ONE shot.
    What Would Gumby Do?

  8. #37
    Member Array Puppy's Avatar
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    I'm glad Exsoldier brought up his point about movement. I have no disagreement with those who talk about moving, whatever direction. My problems are old age and severe arthritis of the spine. I not only can't move fast, I have severe nerve pain in my legs if I move fast or even far.

    That leaves me with limited choice. Aim straight and shoot straight.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    What to do with your family when there is little to no cover?
    If need be, I become their cover.

    Otherwise, as stated before, distance is your friend. And shoot straight. Aim small, miss small.

    Some situations just suck. You play the hand you are dealt the best you can. Never give up, your loved ones live may depend on you giving yours.
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  10. #39
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation AMEN, Brother!

    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdog View Post
    I think the supressive fire issue has been covered. I'll add a couple of minor opinions: No prone, no kneeling, you just made a better target for low incoming and ricocheting rounds.
    Main point: The absolute BEST cover in the world (when you don't have fixed cover) is your front sight. Get exactly behind it and place it exactly between your eye and where you want your bullet to go. Getting behind that little sliver of metal has stopped some bad things from happening...with ONE shot.
    Have to agree 100% on this one. Noting your screen name, I wondered how long it would be before one of us sheepdogs used it as a "handle."

    Speaking to a comment made by THE FED, I went back and looked at the scenario presented by the OP and it didn't say anything about anybody actually firing. It said a "threat" to his family in a large open area with no cover. That could be anything, including condition RED (rounds in the air). If no rounds are aimed at me and mine or if there is a verifiable threat I stand by MY post which is to screen a retreat to a position of safety and cover. If rounds are in the air, then it's something else to consider with a new paradigm. BTW, in my post about use of full auto as CCW, my comments were mostly tactical (collateral damage) and political not really "legal." Unless you lump collateral damage under a legal category but that wasn't my intent. I'm not referring to legal consequences of killing an innocent....it's simply morally corrupt to casually put them (innocent civilians) at risk with full auto in a scenario that isn't presented as a battlefield against enemy combatants.

    Bringing me full circle to sheepdog that the safest place in a dangerous world without cover is squarely behind the front sight, taking carefully aimed shots! Can we say AMEN, again? AMEN!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #40
    Member Array Dwight55's Avatar
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    I'm on board with ExSoldier's comment about "the safest place in a dangerous world without cover is squarely behind the front sight, taking carefully aimed shots!"

    I will add also that as a soldier I was trained that prone offered the least possible target to an aggressor on foot. I still believe that, and the comment about low or ricochet rounds is just not good sense.

    To that I would add that the single most stable platform to return fire is the prone position, . . . it only makes sense to send the family on a dead run 90 degrees to my position, . . . going prone, . . . taking out the threat if it is at all possible.

    Even us geezers can do that if in fact we have first taken the time and effort to find out where your handgun prints at 100 yds.

    May God bless,
    Dwight
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  12. #41
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Actually...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight55 View Post
    I'm on board with ExSoldier's comment about "the safest place in a dangerous world without cover is squarely behind the front sight, taking carefully aimed shots!"

    Even us geezers can do that if in fact we have first taken the time and effort to find out where your handgun prints at 100 yds.

    May God bless,
    Dwight
    Thanks Dwight, but the person who gets the credit for that one is SHEEPDOG. I was giving him the hearty AMEN!

    I don't think many of my handguns are accurate enough to get a group at 100 yds. Actually maybe it's more likely that I am no longer capable of shooting a handgun at that range accurately!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Actually maybe it's more likely that I am no longer capable of shooting a handgun at that range accurately!
    100 yards, at a moving target, with a HG is challenging, "to say the least". Can you see the target? Is the target within the effective range of your weapon, but possibly beyond your functional range (minute of man vs MOA)? Are friendlies not within the known/observable vicinity of the target? If you are delivering fire under these circumstances, you are, more or less by definition, delivering "suppressive fire"; as escape is your ideal goal, suppression of the agressor's directed activity is sufficient, and you do not have to close with him/her (unless there is some other, pressing, reason). Have there been real-world shootings like this? Yes.

    C'mon, guys, this isn't "spray-n-pray", and many of you should know me better. My assumptions: 1) the shooter has a carbine, as they are more accurate at distance; 2) the shooter is heading towards my family. At 70+ yards, if either 1 or 2 is not the case, no need to fire- just get outta Dodge. If 1 and 2 are present, I would have to decide if I was going to convince him there was a "hornet on the hill", with controlled suppression, or close with him, shooting (but why am I trying to close with someone with superior firepower and no ROE when I would not be able to control/direct his movements in relation to my family?).

    Certainly, taking a rest position and going for a long shot would be ideal, and might present itself as a viable option. Conversely, if he's akin to the Texas courthouse shooter, I'd have to be very calm, very accurate, and very lucky. Honestly, I'm very calm under pressure, moderately accurate to 75 yards with a G19, and luck is tempermental. I could probably make a good head hit on a good day. If not, he's got twice my capacity on board and 2-3 times the sight radius, and if he's a bit more accurate and/or lucky... If I were to miss, or make an ineffectual hit, I'm right back to having to do something to get him down before he has time for aimed fire at me, which leads back to...

    Perhaps I'm flavoring my response with personal prejudice too much...

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