A scenario I run through my head constantly

This is a discussion on A scenario I run through my head constantly within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MattLarson Down our way, we've had a rash of robberies where the BG shoots the cashier after they comply fully with whatever ...

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Thread: A scenario I run through my head constantly

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Andy W.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Down our way, we've had a rash of robberies where the BG shoots the cashier after they comply fully with whatever demands were made.

    Just because it looks like a straightforward robbery doesn't mean the BG isn't going to shoot someone just for the heck of it on the way out, at least not down here lately.

    Just food for thought.

    Matt
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  3. #17
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    QK - good points about 911 being a possible distraction. Kd5nrh - good points on how those can be overcome.

    I believe that calling 911 makes good tactical and "liability" sense, and would make every effort to do so, if it could be done safely and without compromising my tactical advantages. But, like QK says, it's a matter of training and experience. While I'm no Wyatt Earp or Jim Cirillo by any means, I've been in a few fairly serious social situations. I know that I can (or at least, "used to could") shoot, move, and communicate fairly effectively and all at the same time. As always, YMMV.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #18
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    Thumbs up BlueTooth

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  5. #19
    Member Array Serenity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Down our way, we've had a rash of robberies where the BG shoots the cashier after they comply fully with whatever demands were made.

    Just because it looks like a straightforward robbery doesn't mean the BG isn't going to shoot someone just for the heck of it on the way out, at least not down here lately.
    Life is always a matter of choices. Some of them very hard. The bottom line is that everybody in the place is better off if no shots are fired and this ends with Ronald McDonald having to sell a few more burgers to make up for the evenings losses.

    If nobody shoots, there's a good set of odds that says well all go home tonight. If I do fire ,at best, I'm probably looking at serious legal issues and at worst shot because his aim was better than mine that day. (Lets not forget the other option where I miss and hit an employee.)

    Yeah, I'd be sorry if Joe Employee gets shot and I'm sure I'd MMQB my decision to wait time and time again. But it comes down to the point that the killer was the BG, not me.

    If one has evaluated this situation and feels confident that the correct action is to shoot as soon as you realize it's an armed robbery, thats a call only that person can make. I just hope it is a decision that was thought out ahead of time for the sake of you and your family.
    "Friend, I would not harm thee for all the world, but thou art standing where I am about to shoot."--Unknown Quaker

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array downrange's Avatar
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    i'm a little late on this thread but, i would also seriously consider leaving a fast as possible. trashcans are right next to the door 90% of the time.
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  7. #21
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    Lateral movement is always eye catching. OPFOR can attest to this. We were trained when probing an enemy position to move directly IN and directly OUT 90 degrees to the target. The human eye doesn't do so well in detecting movement when it is coming forward or moving straight back. That's why two lane roads have so many head on collisions. Any thing side to side even just a little bit is going to be much easier to spot. The only hope would be if the BG is so stressed out that he has fallen into the syndrome of tachypsychia. That slo-mo perception on his part and more importantly the TUNNEL VISION. Unless he is actively scanning by conscious deliberation he's not likely to see anything moving on his extreme flanks. The trouble is: How do you know what his mental state is? I don't know how to answer that one.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array kavity's Avatar
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    For those of you that would shoot pre-emptively: What would you aim for? Centermass? A shot to shut down the CNS?

    If he had a gun or a knife where would you shoot the BG?

  9. #23
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    Close Range Shot Only

    Quote Originally Posted by kavity View Post
    For those of you that would shoot pre-emptively: What would you aim for? Centermass? A shot to shut down the CNS?

    If he had a gun or a knife where would you shoot the BG?
    This is a touchy shot. I'd have to aim for the upper lip at the base of the nose for the CNS shot.Even if I don't manage to snap the neural band with that, this hot offers the greatest distraction in ancilliary destruction: Upper teeth, jaw, nasal passages, and severe impact trauma to the entire cranium. If it's not instant "LIGHTS OUT" then I guarantee he won't be concentrating on killing anybody.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array downrange's Avatar
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    if it's a situation that's too fast paced to access verses reacting, then yes, center mass. the target is slowed down at least enough for the spring in the magazine to push up another round to let me try again. there are no second to multiple takes in real life like the movies to make the perfect shot. on the spot adrenaline overtakes the well planed out scenario. for me? ... center mass before head shot.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    My thought is that most robberies are exactly that: robberies not murders. There are very very few situations like this where I'd consider firing.

    Turning a robbery into a gunfight is called "escalation" not self defense.

    I'd have to be getting some strong vibes that the BG isn't planning on leaving witnesses before I'd take preemptive action like shooting. The possibility of the McDonalds corporation being a few hundred dollars lighter doesn't motivate me to get directly involved in that unless it starts to get ugly.

  12. #26
    Member Array Serenity's Avatar
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    nevermind
    "Friend, I would not harm thee for all the world, but thou art standing where I am about to shoot."--Unknown Quaker

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderdude View Post
    I'm no expert on handgun round ballistics.
    Here is a good idea of real world penetration testing.
    http://www.theboxotruth.com/

    Almost everything is concealment, cover is rare and made of thicker metal, thick wood (tree, pile of lumber, etc), or concrete. And some things that are cover will not be after a few shots.

  14. #28
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    Wink The-Box-o-Truth

    Quote Originally Posted by edcrosbys View Post
    Here is a good idea of real world penetration testing.
    http://www.theboxotruth.com/

    Almost everything is concealment, cover is rare and made of thicker metal, thick wood (tree, pile of lumber, etc), or concrete. And some things that are cover will not be after a few shots.
    I agree with your comment, but the BOX-O-TRUTH isn't necessarily the end all be all determinant of ballistic effectiveness. They might be an indicator but I will trust actual boots on the ground, hands on experience of folks who have BTDT for real. Penetration or the lack thereof thru inanimate objects doesn't necessarily translate into the effects in living flesh or the results on human activity.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post


    I don't think this is a fair assessment of what Serenity is saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity
    My thought is that most robberies are exactly that: robberies not murders. There are very very few situations like this where I'd consider firing.

    Turning a robbery into a gunfight is called "escalation" not self defense.

    I'd have to be getting some strong vibes that the BG isn't planning on leaving witnesses before I'd take preemptive action like shooting. The possibility of the McDonalds corporation being a few hundred dollars lighter doesn't motivate me to get directly involved in that unless it starts to get ugly.
    This is one of those "play it as you see it" situations. Each of us in that situation would have to make a judgment as to whether or not they believed robber intended to kill.

    In my area, we have had a string of robberies where the victims did exactly what the criminals demanded, and then were shot anyway. To me, this is a factor in considering whether or not to intervene in a witnessed robbery.

    But to call someone a sheep because they express the entirely reasonable view that one must carefully weigh the decision to escalate such a situation is pretty unfair, IMHO.

    Besides, a true sheep wouldn't have to consider it because they would have no options anyway.....

    Matt
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  16. #30
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    +1 Matt!
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