Front Sight or Threat?

This is a discussion on Front Sight or Threat? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As most LEO who have drawn down on too many to count I can say from experience (patrol, K9, warrant service, narcotic raids gang task ...

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Thread: Front Sight or Threat?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    As most LEO who have drawn down on too many to count I can say from experience (patrol, K9, warrant service, narcotic raids gang task force, etc.) it's a total threat focus. You can train for it all you want but the true test is pointing your loaded gun at a bad guy in a true confrontation. Nothing quite like it. All genuine knowledge originates in direct experience.

    If you have not done it, you just won't know. Experience is the real teacher. A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
    Last edited by semperfi.45; July 31st, 2007 at 11:52 AM.
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    I, too, agree that instinct's going to zip the vision to the target, not the sight. I also agree that being unaware of the target's basic movements can get you killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    If we are going to be totally instintive why train?
    I don't view any training as rewiring of instinct. Rather, training for me is deep-searching for the instinctual and seeking to leverage its strengths, such that when the time comes those skills won't fail me.

    Just as with avoiding the fine-motor skills, focusing on what can be accomplished via simple movements and aiming helps avoid ingraining the thought that fine-motor actions can actually hold up under stress.

    Likewise, it's highly unlikely that any of us is going to fail to keep our eyes on a threat at the exact moment that threat turns on the "green light" and it's time to ACT. But any training on front sight focus helps assure me that the triangulation I perform keeps me on target. My "focus" isn't merely visual; it's mental. It's right along the line from the eye through the sight to the target. If my focus is on the sight, the center of that sight goes right through the fuzzy view of the center of the target. If my focus is on the target, because of the training that front sight is right through the center of the target. Wasn't so, before.

    By the way, I can't point-shoot worth a plug nickel. Never have been able to, no matter how much focus and training (or guidance) I invested.

    Why train? So that the instinctual can be leveraged and those little reminders and guides we're trying to use will hold up under stressful situations. Without training, one can't know what skills and techniques will and won't survive a dire situation. Even then, it's a guess. (Been there, in the field, as have many hunters. For me, in those situations, the guess was dead on.)
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  4. #18
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    Lima makes my point very well when we were arguing a while back in a thread far far away about the importantance of instictive shooting, point shooting etc. So many disagreed, but this illustrates it perfectly.

    In a situation described by Lima, you should be able to come up on target and hit it everytime with out worrying about the sights.
    If there is time to worry about the sights, yes, your primary attention should be payed to the target. However, your sights should be in the foreground of your picture, almost like a video game. Its should be as if the sights are just there, floating in space. You will see the top of the slide or barrel and the sights. Your target is beyond with the sights floating around in front of it.

    Some of you who know what they are talking about will say I am described tunnel vision... yup I did. Thats the part that requires your concentration. You need to know that your brain is going to focus on the threat, and its out of your control... almost.
    You need to train your melon to be able to seperate or cut your field of vison into segments, or be able to "pie". This is the only way you you be able to pay attention and take care of the threat, yet be able to see whats going on around you.

    I know it sounds like a lot of hoky garbage, but its not hard to do, and you will be a better tactical shooter if you take the time to learn it.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    However, your sights should be in the foreground of your picture, almost like a video game. Its should be as if the sights are just there, floating in space. You will see the top of the slide or barrel and the sights. Your target is beyond with the sights floating around in front of it.
    Yep. Which is why XS and Warren/Sevingy sights are hot commodities among those doing fast and intensive shooting. They scream, "SEE MEE TOO!"

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I have found over the years that at " bad breath" range you are shooting from retention so sights are worthless. From " out of a lunge and a grab" range you will regester the pistol in vision but not really see the sights out to about 12 to 15 yards . from that point to 15 to 18 yards or so you will aquire a " flash sight picture " noting that things are roughly lined up . from about 20 yards and out you will " see the sight " and make use of them carefully .
    This has been my experience , and that of various folks i have talked to who have been there and done that so they can go home that night .
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    I have used the TP Hardware Controlled Sight to simulate tunnel vision with great results. If you think you will use your sights, when you put these on you'll think otherwise. No longer available on that site, but you can try CDT Training direct at 888-238-7287.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why you can't focus on the threat while attempting to look through the front sight.

    While I was only attacked by dogs and not a human, this is what I did. The front sight looked like it was one with the threat, kinda' two dimensonal.

    However, I didn't hit them. I don't chalk this up to a failure on this method's part but rather that I had never trained for low and fast targets to come in and I couldn't keep the sights on them - everything was happening in slow motion and every shot fired (three) hit behind them, right where they had been.

    A little slower and I would have made some solid hits.

    Josh <><

  9. #23
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    Lima....if the situation ever demands....ALWAYS WATCH THEIR HANDS! You have your weapon instinctively pointing in their direction for immediate action, however you have to be able to see your opponent in order to ascertain what action to take...including deciding to pull the trigger. The hands will be the tell along with general body posturing, threats, etc....but it is the hands that are most often used in acts of agression.

    Gun Control means never having to say "Darn, I missed!"

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith View Post
    I'm not sure why you can't focus on the threat while attempting to look through the front sight.
    OK, here's my nerdy photography background coming out: It's mostly a depth of field (focus) issue with most people. In daylight or brightly-lit areas, it's easier to focus on both because the pupils are constricted into smaller diameter openings which creates a sharper image of both near and far objects.

    In low-light situations (which is when most attacks occur), however, your pupils are dilated, and your depth of focus is much narrower. IMO, when you add to that stress, adrenaline and fear, your looking at a pretty lousy picture. Focus on the threat, practice all of the shooting tips posted in this thread and pray you don't have to use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by While I was only attacked by dogs and not a human, this is what I did. The front sight looked like it was one with the threat, kinda' two dimensonal.

    However, I didn't hit them. I don't chalk this up to a failure on this method's part but rather that I had never trained for low and fast targets to come in and I couldn't keep the sights on them - everything was happening in slow motion and every shot fired (three) hit behind them, right where they [i
    had[/i] been.

    A little slower and I would have made some solid hits.
    I wonder if some wingshooting skills would come in here. Bird coming at you ... aim high, bird going away ... aim low.

    Well, I guess that would work if the dogs were flying, eh? Try it in reverse and see what happens.
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  11. #25
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    ALWAYS WATCH THEIR HANDS
    ahhh yes...
    spoken like someone with some LEO training...

    and...BTW....WELCOME !
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  12. #26
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    I wonder if some wingshooting skills would come in here. Bird coming at you ... aim high, bird going away ... aim low.
    The trick to hitting a moving target that has any speed at all is to shoot where it is gonna be....not where it is at.

    That goes for people that are running as well. The further the distance, the longer the lead.
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  13. #27
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    Talking LOL that reminds me...

    Quote Originally Posted by KyInvestigator View Post
    Lima....if the situation ever demands....ALWAYS WATCH THEIR HANDS! The hands will be the tell along with general body posturing, threats, etc....but it is the hands that are most often used in acts of agression. Gun Control means never having to say "Darn, I missed!"
    When I was in the academy for being a parole officer, one time one of our trainers said the same thing but he said it like this: If he's got a brick in his hand he'd BETTER be building a HOUSE!

    Back then, it was generally dept policy to be unarmed. MY bosses took note of my college degree in criminal justice AND my background as an infantry captain and said if I wanted to carry in the field, they's sign a waiver for just me. If I had to shoot, just make sure it was justifiable and they'd back me up.
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  14. #28
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    Lima, Try this.

    You work at the range so you have an advantage. Use either the far right or far left lane. Hang a target in the next lane in. Have someone trigger the target to come back from 7 yards to "check" the target. As soon as you see it move fire 3-5 shots and see how you do and what you focus on. Something like this

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=MWqQZOyd84o
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  15. #29
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    I'm no expert but here is my $0.02 in a gunfight......

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  16. #30
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    Lots of both good and bad advice in this thread.

    Mother nature is going to dictate that you focus on the threat. Good training will dictate that the threat will come from the hands.

    ONCE THE DECISION TO SHOOT has been made you must then FOCUS on your sights.

    You can not miss fast enough to win.
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