Front Sight or Threat?

This is a discussion on Front Sight or Threat? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by sgb Lots of both good and bad advice in this thread. Mother nature is going to dictate that you focus on the ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 54

Thread: Front Sight or Threat?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,724

    Wink From GO-zillions of studies I glean one major fact:

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Lots of both good and bad advice in this thread.

    Mother nature is going to dictate that you focus on the threat. Good training will dictate that the threat will come from the hands.

    ONCE THE DECISION TO SHOOT had been made you must then FOCUS on your sights.

    You can not miss fast enough to win.
    Every police involved shooting study I have ever read indicates that the cops who scored first shot solid torso hits also distinctly remembered seeing their front sights as the shot is tripped. That's also how I was trained both by the US Army and the NRA: If you see your front sight clearly and you see the target (fuzzy) you will hit.

    As in everything, shot placement and ammo configuration is everything. The military is screaming that they need a return to the 45 ACP. That's because they HAVE to use ball ammo according to the rules of land warfare established by the Hague Convention (IIRC). All things being equal, a 45 ball load is going to be much more effective than any 9mm ball load. However, switch to state of the art JHPs and the differences drop dramatically.

    I'm not certain what bad advice has been given on this thread. Most folks seem to have well reasoned and experienced suggestions each coming from his own unique background and level of training and experience.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #32
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    34,574
    Can a defensive shooter be trained to always reference the front sight before pulling the trigger on a known deadly threat? No matter how stressful the scenario and no matter how high the body adrenaline level is? Of Course.

    And if that is what a person needs to do to secure a solid hit then (by all means) train hard to do it and then you'll do it.

    Naturally the human eye cannot FOCUS with crystal clarity simultaneously on both the front sight and the threat.
    Our eyes don't work that way and it's not possible.
    Both will not be in focus at exactly the same time.
    The front sight will be crisp and the threat will be blurred.
    That's just the way it is.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Wabash IN
    Posts
    675
    You know, I read that Massad Ayoob and others were experimenting with large doses of injected pseudoephedrine HCL at their training facility to simulate an adrenaline dump. Paramedics were on scene. They believed that, if worked into the curricullum, that it would benefit advanced students.

    I believe they also experimented with stun guns for the same effect.

    I don't recommend any of this - I still run if I want an adrenaline dump - but it's interested to note their observations. They were, for one, unable to get a clear front site picture. This is why I say put the fuzzy front site on the target.

    This is what I did when the dogs attacked.

    To the gent who mentioned it: This was a bright overcast cold winter's day. Also, I've begun shooting at ground targets. I cannot wingshoot at all. I've tried that off and on for years.

    Josh <><

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,141

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Lots of both good and bad advice in this thread.
    By all means, specify, if mistakes or bad advice have been suggested.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  6. #35
    Member
    Array BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    87
    Earlier this year and then again last weekend I attended a training class that involved a Fire Arms Training Simulator (FATS) after an in depth lectures about Legal use of Force and Personal Protection.

    During the use of the trainer many students experience many of the symptoms of an incident, elevated heart rate, tunnel vision, hearing, memory was affected, hyperventilate or holding your breath, sweating and tachypsychia.

    This is not the real thing but as close as we can prepare ourselves.
    I believe that when it comes down to reacting to different situations we respond to what we have learned during our life time, this is how we know we are in danger or safe and how we respond.

    A learned behavior is done by repeated exposure to stimuli and when confronted with a situation you try and draw from past experiences to respond properly.
    Seek Professional Training for Self Defense and Practice as this is how we train ourselves in preforming in stressful conditions.

    What I have picked up is that when confronted into a self defense situation the OODA Loop (observed, orient, decide and act) comes into play as this is how we come to make our choice to flight or flight.

    During the training classes when I did not take that fraction of a second to put that front sight on the target it took several shots and the threat continued to advance, when I put the front site on the target the threat was stopped much sooner and usually with in 2 shots.

    Thus my choice is to use the OODA Loop and if I choose to act then front sight on target and end the threat.

    What ever choice you make, just make sure you are all in or all out.
    Deadly Force is Only Used to Save Your Life or a Life of Another.
    Anything else has non lethal options.
    Packing4Life

  7. #36
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,247
    This is all a lot of information to consider and take in, certainly.

    I've done quite a bit of point shooting/instinctive shooting and I've yet to have a round unaccounted for on the targets (now watch that change after that statement ).

    I'll admit that I have a "problem" with focusing on the target more than I focus on the front sight. I still do well, but I know I do better (as far as target shooting is concerned) when I focus on the front sight.

    I'm hearing a lot of advice and I'm really not sure which road to take. While doing moving and shooting with multiple targets at multiple distances I did concentrate more on my front sights, but, again, those weren't people. They were targets. It was easy to block them out.

    However, I want to be realistic. I think that if forced to draw on a human my focus would be on them. Of course I could be wrong and I could find the situation to be all over and that I did focus on my sights as I was trained, but I think only experience will tell that tale.

    Thanks for all the advice....

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I'm hearing a lot of advice and I'm really not sure which road to take.

    It's "both"! Seriously, "where the eyes go, the shots will follow"-as long as you have the weapon in your field of view. Practice will improve your accuracy. This gets back to Applegate's later modification of his point-shooting stance. As I stated, I like the XS sights because it is easier to focus on the target, and still have a sight picture (though my "picture" is nothing more than a fuzzy orb covering the place I want to make holes).

    Attention (at least for me) has to stay on the target, which is why I always had my sights hitting "low", prior to using XS- I was using shoot through-the-dot with a smaller setup.

    This may sound corny, but watch some of Steven Seagal's older movies. Regardless of the fruit-loop he's become, the SOB can shoot, and his high-floating, slightly canted grip is legitimate. If you are at something beyond 5 paces, and therefore have the time and space for a real sight pic, a variation of it allows almost total peripheral vision coverage, while keeping the pistol in your FOV, and oriented to your torso. Airsoft would be a good thing, if you don't already.

  9. #38
    Member
    Array BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    87
    Another way to practice at this is to use airsoft pistols and find a few other others serious about self defense then you can setup a more realistic scenarios.
    Deadly Force is Only Used to Save Your Life or a Life of Another.
    Anything else has non lethal options.
    Packing4Life

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Over here now!
    Posts
    3,617
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post

    as long as you have the weapon in your field of view.
    It's referred to as "meat and metal".
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array kavity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    614
    I utilize a grip technique that was taught to me by Tom Perroni. It's incredible and I can point my gun exactly where I want without having to sight a thing. I shoot 2inch groups that way consistently.

    I am not really sure the etiquette on divulging his training secrets so I won't. You'll have to go to his class to learn that one ;)

  12. #41
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CONUS
    Posts
    426
    Kavity-

    You have a PM!

    Tom

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Over here now!
    Posts
    3,617
    Are there really any "training secrets"? IMO there is not a whole lot of new concepts in the handgun field, just variations of the same old stuff.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  14. #43
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,247
    I do have a couple of classes coming up this fall and hopefully with more practice and training I'll get it right.

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array Dakotaranger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    North Dakota
    Posts
    1,858
    I just received my Wildwest mag. This issue had an article on Bat Masterson's Colts. He had some interesting specifications for his pistols including a larger front sight.

    What I gathered from the piece was if real gunfighters were concerned with seeing the frontsight I probably better work harder on focusing the front sight while I focus on the threat.
    "[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
    They are left in full possession of them."

    Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~Alexander Hamilton

  16. #45
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CONUS
    Posts
    426
    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    Are there really any "training secrets"? IMO there is not a whole lot of new concepts in the handgun field, just variations of the same old stuff.
    I would be more than happy to teach you! (My way of training)

    P.S. I teach LEO's as well so you are welcome to come!


    Tom Perroni
    www.perronitactical.com
    www.blackwaterusa.com
    www.goldensealeterprises.com

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Front Sight
    By MuddyAlaskanZJ in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: March 17th, 2009, 05:39 PM
  2. “Front Sight or No Front Sight that is the question”
    By DCJS Instructor in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: October 18th, 2008, 09:51 AM
  3. front sight post and holo sight picture
    By Plan B in forum Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: September 21st, 2008, 10:55 PM
  4. Front Sight Only?
    By Cody in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: December 9th, 2007, 10:22 PM
  5. front sight mod
    By tg in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: November 25th, 2006, 08:46 PM

Search tags for this page

combat reactionary sights
,
defensive shoot sight aquire
,
gabe suarez fallout with 7677
,
importance of a distraction defensivecarry
,
police invoved shooting study
,

what does front sight press mean

,
what is front sight press
Click on a term to search for related topics.