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Response to confrontation

4K views 40 replies 24 participants last post by  Thumper 
#1 ·
I left my office tonight around 10:00 and rode home 10 miles on my scooter (OK, my other bike is a GSXR 1000). As I exited the freeway and began to travel 9 miles through a rural environment, I noticed a car following too closely. It matched my every turn until I entered the paved country lane 0.33 miles from my driveway, and as we both turned onto this dark road, the driver of the car turned out the lights and continued to follow. Fortunately, my wife had left our gate open (the driveway is another 0.25 mi), and I scooted up to the garage without incident. If the gate had been closed, I was expecting to be confronted by someone with bad intent. Which is the response least likely to get me hurt if confronted by an armed BG demanding my wallet: reach into the L rear pocket, pull out the wallet, throw it at him and run like hell into the woods; or reach into the R rear pocket, put out the Kel-Tec 380, and empty the magazine while trying to keep moving? I don't want to be a hero, just a healthy husband and dad.
 
#31 ·
Well, I see two mistakes..

One.. if youre being followed.. DONT go home.. go somewhere well lit up and public and maybe call 911. You dont want a BG to know where you live...
Bingo!

Even being unsure if a person is following too closely or in any way gains your attention and follows you for a distance long enough that you keep looking back on them...then that is a sign to think hey who is this and what is going on.
Do not go home.

Go to your local and closest police/sherriff/state police barracks or an active firehouse. Do not try to out run or ditch the person or worst stop in hopes to confront the person or press them into a confrontation. Obey all traffic safety and road laws, whilst going directly to any one of the above safe places.
Do not go home!

- Janq
 
#4 ·
Scooter doesn't make for a good escape vehicle does it. And it sounds like you were on a rural road where your house is.

What you could have done was pull into the end of your driveway and stop. Engage there from a position off the bike if needed and on your own property.

Now if the car drove on by your place, what you could do then is pull back out onto the road and head back into the other direction for a ways before returning home and that may give them the impression that you weren't at your home, but just pulled into the first driveway you could in order to tactically engage them.

I agree with Jon... If part of your plan is to toss them your wallet... Toss a wallet that doesn't contain all your ID, credit cards and such. A lot of people advocate carrying a "Decoy Wallet" if that is your intention and I have done that a few times on occasion when in urban areas or out of town.
 
#5 ·
Two mistakes, the first was going to your home, like someone else said. The second was not using your scooter for some sort of cover.

You could have pulled in to the entryway of your driveway and used the scooter as cover to see if the following vehicle was going to engage you. While I don't think scooters make the best cover, they are better than nothing.

You would also be placing a physical barrier between you and the threat, thus making you a "harder" target for a BG. As far as a "Drop Wallet" I can't make that decision for you. It has it's pluses and minuses. I already carry two wallets, where would I place the third?

Biker :tumbleweed:
 
#6 ·
Did you get a description or plate number?? May want to warn neighbors and PD of this happening.
 
#7 ·
I tell folks to carry a money clip with a fat wad of $1 bills in the middle and maybe a $10 or $5 on the outside, so maybe you get a decent distractor for $10-$20 which is acceptable to me. Gives it enough weight to toss a fair distance.

This is a difficult situation. You're on a very under powered vehicle in a very rural area. I agree DON'T go home! I think I'd be tempted to ditch the scooter at the side of the road and dart into the woods. Take cover behind a nice sized tree and see what might appear in the way of pursuit. That's the Infantry Officer in me, I guess.

I think you've got to compromise somewhere. If you're going to ride a scooter, carry something more ummmm definitive in the way of a sidearm. You live in a rural area. Presumably it's going to take awhile for the cops to arrive after a 911 call. Assuming you can get a cell signal from the scooter. Even if you called from home, it's going to take awhile to get to you. You've taken the first correct steps in carrying the Kel-Tec for self defense and it will do a fine job on a street mugger at point blank range. But that's not this scenario, is it? This situation requires some range and accuracy and either capacity OR a bigger bullet. Actually, consider a Glock M26 or 27. 9mm or 40. You can carry the standard 9 or 10 rd mag and it conceals really well. Then you can carry a M19 or 23 mag along for additional comfort in capacity. I would also carry a tactical flashlight of some kind. Perhaps a SureFire G2 Nitrolon. Fairly inexpensive and yet fully capable of if not blinding an adversary totally blowing any capacity for night vision for over an hour. That gives you a decided advantage.
 
#8 ·
Maybe rig the scooter with smokescreen or oil slick? I agree that going home should be avoided, and what Exsoldier said about a beefier gun if possible, since you have the open spaces of rural America and the lack of cover that a scooter can provide.
 
#11 ·
one word

caltrops



really though. what kind of scooter? would it be viable to just drive it up the next deer path a little way?
 
#12 ·
Once the lights went out, I would have gone into attack mode. What I like to do on a bike, and not sure if your scooter would do it as well, is brake, then speed up quite a bit. Shoot down the road some distance, then stop and look right into the oncoming car to see what is going on.

Yeah, being confrontational would maybe have proved to be a mistake. But it would also send the signal that I do NOT want to be messed with, especially if the person had not decided on what they would do.

I would keep a lookout for that same car now that they may know where you live.
 
#13 ·
You did not say where they went when you went to the garage. 1/4 mile from home you can change course for a gas station or someplace else, unless you live on a dead end road like I do, then it is a tactical turn in the open field and a game of follow me if you can... to the tree line that is, then I have all the cover in the world and you are in the open.
 
#14 ·
Overall, good job on getting to a safe spot without incident. Given what you had to work with, I think you did fine! :congrats:

Now, let's take it apart, a bit. I try to take absolutely nothing for granted, so take that into account. I doubt everything, consider everything as a "sign" and being indicative of something, and try very hard to vary my routine to guard against exactly this sort of thing. Though I have been followed on several occasions for brief periods, through town, I have yet to be caught out at night on a scooter, alone in the boonies. So, you've got at least one experience under your belt that I've not had. Still, let's see what we can do ...

... 10:00 ... exited the freeway and began to travel 9 miles through a rural environment ...
On a scooter and now off the beaten path. That's a tough one. Only after you're out of sight and into the boonies are you sure there might be a problem. Not many choices. Is your scooter very, very fast? How rural is "rural", in terms of how quickly can you be back where people are seeing you or can help you? Boonies, literally, with no restaurant, gas station or any other place with people? If none of that around, your own turf was probably the best option.

As for the .380, how well-armed are you, normally? In that situation, did you feel under-gunned? By much? Did you have many spare rounds/magazines? No? You can easily rectify all of that.

Scooter, hm? Completely open and visible to anyone following. Apparently, a slow vehicle. Obviously not capable of high speed or off-road endeavors. Not incredibly well-lit. In other words, at 10pm with a solitary rider, fish bait ... a target. As was apparently the case in this instance.

... I noticed a car following too closely. It matched my every turn until I entered the paved country lane 0.33 miles from my driveway ...
At that exact point, exactly how many alternative directions could you have gone? Would any of them have been more-secure, better-lit, more-populated than your own driveway? Got a "goat track" or trail you could have scooted up, where a car could not travel?

There is something comforting about your own home ground, but as you know: they now know where you live.

... my wife had left our gate open (the driveway is another 0.25 mi), and I scooted up to the garage without incident.
Good reminder to have a long-range garage opener on your person, if you're going to be coming in late at night on the scooter. No different than if you were coming in via car. All the more important, now that you've got someone who has sensed a pattern with you ... that you're a scooter-mobile target that lives at that house. Caution is due.

Which is the response least likely to get me hurt if confronted by an armed BG ...
Dropping the BG before he drops you. Next to that, prayer the BG(s) doesn't hurt you while you dither on whether to drop the BG before he drops you. Standard rules and laws apply, but you've got a lot of circumstances suggesting you're being attacked, at this point. Waiting all the way until forced to toss your wallet the other direction (in the dark, mind you, which won't help his demeanor much) provides few guarantees. The only given here is: the BG is apparently making a move, so decide on what to do about it. Evade, avoid, outrun, go defensive. Until he/they actually attack overtly, you're on shaky legal ground, so have caution and keep your wits. As at all such times, you picks your response and takes your chances.

One thing: Darkness can be your friend, particularly near or on your own home turf. It works against an attacker and for a defender. If on your own home turf, you can use that. You ought to be well aware of every blade of grass within a 100yd swath from your house.

I don't want to be a hero, just a healthy husband and dad.
With an apparent BG that knows where you live, on a lower-powered scooter, having a .380ACP and on a darkened country lane, alone, you've got few choices. He knew that. Now, so do you.

Think for a moment. Put yourself in the BG's shoes for a moment ... and think. You want to attack the guy 150yds ahead of you. He's getting deeper into it, as the minutes roll on. He's on a dark lane, going deeper and darker away from any help. He's not on a high-powered vehicle. He's apparently not armed, but you don't know that. You're possibly with your BG cohort(s), thinking this might be an easy score. One lone GG to be taken down, possibly with firearms; possibly with force of numbers.

Suggestions for guarding against this sort of thing:
  • Keep your "radar" on at all times, when out and about. Expect the unexpected. Anticipate that anyone turning off the larger roads to the rural ones is likely following you ... so, prove yourself wrong before you do anything else, such as drawing them to your family.
  • Speak with your family immediately. Describe the situation and the risk. Clearly identify that this car's occupants know where you live, know your scooter-based, late-night pattern. Enlist their assistance to beef up the perimeter security and communications. Y'all don't need to be paranoid or fearful, but you do need to be working together on this.
  • Get more firepower and keep it with you at all times. Keep spare magazines with you at all times.
  • Secure the house. Keep it secured. They know where you live. Might be a good opportunity to review your perimeter-defense plan. Check the alarm's batteries, silent alarm, perimeter/zone capability, comms to the alarm service or police, etc.
  • Got dogs? No? If you live in the country ... get one or two.
  • For late-night excursions, ditch the scooter and select your higher-powered motorcycle or a car. Keep a locked area on the bike with spare magazines in a pouch that you can quickly access if need be. If you needed to head into the weeds, you could quickly snatch another 4-6 mags and be reasonably well-prepared for a firefight against even a carload of perps.
  • Vary your routine. They know where you live, that you're on a slower scooter, that you drive alone at night. You're at risk. Drive elsewhere. Pick another couple/three routes for getting to your country lane. Don't have any? Then, you might have a problem with little recourse.
  • Have communications physically on you. The moment you notice turn-for-turn matching, get on the horn and call in the cavalry. (Here's where you see the usefulness of a one-button 911 function on a cell phone.) Cell phone doesn't go everywhere out in the boonies? Consider a GMRS radio and enlist the help of a dozen of your closer rural neighbors as sort of a "neighborhood watch" committee.
  • Have a method of opening your gate and/or garage door automatically from a fair distance. Have a quick-opening gate at the opening edge of the property, one that optionally relays a signal to your garage door to open as well (ie, if a "panic" button is hit).
  • Listen to that internal "voice" that tells you when the scat's hitting the whirly thing, because, like as not, it is. At that instant, it's time for an alternative plan ... different direction, different speed, proof that all's well, and proactive decisions if it's not.

Given what you had to work with, I think you did very well. Had I been in the boonies and had as few options, I might well not have done much differently. I'd like to think I would not have shown then where I lived, but on a lower-powered scooter and on a dark country lane with few alternatives, frankly I think choice of my own home turf would be the best in that situation, all things considered.

Kudos on surviving. I think the mere fact the car matched your turns and then turned out its lights proves you were being followed. Had you not zipped into a protective area at that moment, I think you would have been attacked. A guess, but a good one I think.

Now, keep your "radar" on HIGH for the couple of mos. They do know where you live. They can now monitor your path and be on the lookout for a scooter-bound single guy. They can lie in wait. I don't mean to scare you. They've already got the ability to ambush you, so don't ignore it; rather, be aware of it and leverage it to your advantage, in terms of preparations. Be cautious. Be aware. Vary your route, times. Vary your vehicle. Ditch the scooter for a few months.
 
#17 ·
Sorry...



Respectfully, I have to disagree. This went from harrassment to threat behavior the moment the headlights went off on a dark country road. I don't know what the road conditions were, but s'pose he'd had a tumble right in front of them? With headlights OFF the risk of running him over skyrocketed. That's culpable negligence at least. It lends weight to the spin-up of a deliberate attack. If you can see such coming then you should act in such a way as to minimize their odds of success as well as make clear YOU shouldn't be regarded as "prey" under any circumstance and especially for your mode of transportation!
 
#16 ·
get a scoped long rifle for the house, make sure someone inside can use it. Wouldnt hurt to have a little back up from the house, especially if that gate is locked next time. Otherwise, good job. I would have went home too. They may know where I live, but if they choose to follow they are gonna know that when it rains it pours. Not water, lead.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Definitions of a "scooter."



If we were talking about a dirt bike in the 250-350cc range I'd agree also dependent on rider skill. I don't ride dirtbikes for a reason. It is one fast way to bust your A$$.

I like BIG cruisers. They have drawbacks, too. But very few conventional cars can keep up with a skillful rider in traffic who is riding say a Harley Low Rider or a Honda Goldwing. A 'Wing is faster off the line and in the quarter mile than a Lamoborghini Countach. So in the city a big cruiser has all the edge. IF a rider has the skill.

In the boonies, a good dirtbike could just dart off road and go straight up a hillside (not too steep but steeper than a car could handle) or across a stream or you name it. Again depending on the skill and courage of the rider.

But we're talking about a scooter here. A scooter is designed for just two things: gas mileage and easy rideability. It doesn't have the ooomph or ground clearance to go off road and neither will it be able to stay fluid and loose in moving traffic. The best E & E (escape & evade) potential it MIGHT have is in bumper to bumper traffic where it would have the smallness factor to slide between cars and inch over curbs to get away. In a rural setting that single advantage goes away.
 
#27 ·
I put a gate on my quarter-mile long driveway so as not to find my way blocked by some thug when going in on call in the middle of the night, and I never expected that it might be an impediment to getting out of a situation like this. My street is a dead end, so once I had turned down it, the possibility of evading a following vehicle by going to the well-lit kroger parking lot 2.5 mi away was lost.

As I was riding down my rural lane, I remembered my nurse's 18 yr-old nephew who was car jacked at gunpoint just 3 days earlier and released after thug #1 had riden in the back seat with him, sticking a pistol on his neck for 10 minutes as thug #2 drove around town in his new car. I wasted time thinking about this instead of what I should do to evade a threat.

My neighbor's driveway enters his property though a well-cut field that I could have ridden off-road on the Burgman 400 until I reached a tree to take cover behind. It is very unlikely that anyone would have followed off road. Why didn't I think of that at the time?

I practice shooting my Kel-Tec 380 and Kahr PM9, but I had not mentally rehearsed such an encounter. This underscores the importance of considering where one might likely encounter a dangerous situation and how to deal with it should one materialize.

I appreciate all the input from forum members.
 
#29 ·
dahenrymd, not a criticism but some advice if this type of situation comes up again. This goes for anyone who feels their "spidey sense" tingling as well. Four things that are easy to do to find out if someone is following you.

1) Slow down and take quick turns without signaling. This will make it so that the person behind you will have to quickly change course and will make it blatantly obvious they're doing so.

2) Make turns in a zig-zag pattern (again, without signals). This would be such as making a right, then a left, then a right, and another left (and so on). Most people will assume that at some point you will go straight and will continue on thinking you've turned off your lights or arrived home.

3) Perform a set of turns in a circle. If someone has an intended destination, they are very unlikely to make 3 right or left turns in a row. If a person follows you on each and every turn, they are following you.

4) Stop. That simple. This will force the person that is possibly following you to either continue on or confront you. While this is the most dangerous option, it is also the most fool-proof.

* Disclaimer: There are sometimes permissible reasons for someone to follow you. You could have a legitimate follower that is a police officer currently investigating a suspected or recent crime, or is about to perform a traffic stop due to an equipment violation (or for not using your turn signals earlier lol). It could also be someone attempting to inform you that you left your wallet, etc. somewhere, that you left something on your roof or trunk lid, a friend or neighbor trying to inform you of an important message (e.g. death in the family and your phone's not working), or others.

Cheers.
 
#30 ·
One more qualifier...

dahenrymd, not a criticism but some advice if this type of situation comes up again. This goes for anyone who feels their "spidey sense" tingling as well. Four things that are easy to do to find out if someone is following you.

1) Slow down and take quick turns without signaling.
2) Make turns in a zig-zag pattern (again, without signals).
3) Perform a set of turns in a circle.
4) Stop. That simple. This will force the person that is possibly following you to either continue on or confront you. While this is the most dangerous option, it is also the most fool-proof.

* Disclaimer: There are sometimes permissible reasons for someone to follow you. You could have a legitimate follower that is a police officer currently investigating a suspected or recent crime, or is about to perform a traffic stop due to an equipment violation (or for not using your turn signals earlier lol). It could also be someone attempting to inform you that you left your wallet, etc. somewhere, that you left something on your roof or trunk lid, a friend or neighbor trying to inform you of an important message (e.g. death in the family and your phone's not working), or others.

Cheers.
GOOD LIST but there is one more caveat. You likely will not spot an experienced TEAM that's got radio contact with each other and are running the box or parallel formations, a different car rotating into the position behind you at certain intervals. Those can be spotted, but it takes someone of equal proficiency. The topper is a chopper overhead.
 
#32 ·
how bout a hideaway compartment under the seat stuffed with an mp-5 and a couple of mags?
 
#33 ·
I was followed by a car up a two lane road one night. he was tailgating weaving, and trying to pass me. I slowed to let him pass and to get a plate number to call into 911. he slowed and tucked in behind me again. I went up the main street in town to get away from him and he ducked down a side street parallel to mine but I had to turn down a street to the street he was on. As I stopped at the intersection to let him have right of way, he screehced to a stop sideways in the road. I immediately speed dialed 911, and left it on speaker phone. The driver exited the vehicle, a small black sports car, and began cursing at me with what appeared to be a black pipe in his hand. I was standing in the doorway of my 4wd pickup truck (behind cover) and was yelling very loudly so the 911 dispatcher could hear, "Sir, drop the weapon and get back into your car and leave, I do not want any trouble and you are blocking my route to travel to to my friend's house. I am armed and will defend myself if you advance further. The guy's g/f was yelling "Terry get back in the car, he has a gun." I never showed my weapon at any time. He did get back in his car and screech off. State Police later showed up after I got on the line and advised my location. After a BOLO was put out with a description and plate number of the car, the guy was picked up later that night on DUI and possession of cocaine. I agree with previous poster do what you can within reason but when the other ups the ante, ie turning off the headlights, it is better act and explain later than react and regret. The one positive with a bike or scooter is the ability to dismount rather quickly, and find some better cover if possible. That is definitely a hair raising experience.
 
#34 ·
Wanted to add-in on what BimmerJon and Janq said. A true LEO is going to decide where to pull you over in advance and will "pick" a well-lit place to pull you over with plenty of room on the side of the road before putting on their lights unless you're doing something really obvious and stupid.

Be careful about fire stations. As Janq said, it should be an active fire station. 73% of the nation has volunteer fire departments where people are not there 24/7. If you go home they will know where you live and many criminals follow you home exactly for that purpose and come back at a later time to do the crime.

Cheers.
 
#35 ·
A true LEO is going to decide where to pull you over in advance and will "pick" a well-lit place to pull you over with plenty of room on the side ...
I've had two instances of exactly the opposite. Both years ago. One got fairly angry as I waited until the first safe spot and didn't appreciate any of the clear logic that it was being done for our mutual benefit. Sad to say, the ideal isn't always followed.
 
#37 ·
dahenrymd scooter hair raising ride

If I was you and road the scooter on a regular bases if possible at my drive-way I would build a small "escape" hole beside the locked gate. Something narrow enough that you scooter could pass, but not a car. I don't know the layout of your spread, but it could be something as simple as 2 large posts about 3 foot apart to one side of the gate. If you found your self in a similar situation it would give you quite an advantage to get inside your home if needed. Other plus is if you are in your home and they want to come in and "play" well :spankme: While you are getting a lot of advice about not going home, and it probably is the best advice I know I'm heading for the house, because whats in there they don't want any part of....



SleepingZ
 
#41 ·
Just a random thought on this scenario... a cellular headset with voice dial would be easier to use on a scooter and less obvious to the BG(s). :image035: I like the Jabra BT500v!
 
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