Response to confrontation
This is a discussion on Response to confrontation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I left my office tonight around 10:00 and rode home 10 miles on my scooter (OK, my other bike is a GSXR 1000). As I ...
July 30th, 2007 12:41 AM
Response to confrontation
I left my office tonight around 10:00 and rode home 10 miles on my scooter (OK, my other bike is a GSXR 1000). As I exited the freeway and began to travel 9 miles through a rural environment, I noticed a car following too closely. It matched my every turn until I entered the paved country lane 0.33 miles from my driveway, and as we both turned onto this dark road, the driver of the car turned out the lights and continued to follow. Fortunately, my wife had left our gate open (the driveway is another 0.25 mi), and I scooted up to the garage without incident. If the gate had been closed, I was expecting to be confronted by someone with bad intent. Which is the response least likely to get me hurt if confronted by an armed BG demanding my wallet: reach into the L rear pocket, pull out the wallet, throw it at him and run like hell into the woods; or reach into the R rear pocket, put out the Kel-Tec 380, and empty the magazine while trying to keep moving? I don't want to be a hero, just a healthy husband and dad.
July 30th, 2007 12:41 AM
July 30th, 2007 12:44 AM
Well, I see two mistakes..
One.. if youre being followed.. DONT go home.. go somewhere well lit up and public and maybe call 911. You dont want a BG to know where you live... And throwing your wallet has the same effect (DL with home address)
XD 9mm 4 Inch
XD .40 Sub Compact
July 30th, 2007 01:14 AM
I wasn't sure I was being followed until the last turn.
July 30th, 2007 01:23 AM
Scooter doesn't make for a good escape vehicle does it. And it sounds like you were on a rural road where your house is.
What you could have done was pull into the end of your driveway and stop. Engage there from a position off the bike if needed and on your own property.
Now if the car drove on by your place, what you could do then is pull back out onto the road and head back into the other direction for a ways before returning home and that may give them the impression that you weren't at your home, but just pulled into the first driveway you could in order to tactically engage them.
I agree with Jon... If part of your plan is to toss them your wallet... Toss a wallet that doesn't contain all your ID, credit cards and such. A lot of people advocate carrying a "Decoy Wallet" if that is your intention and I have done that a few times on occasion when in urban areas or out of town.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
July 30th, 2007 03:11 AM
Two mistakes, the first was going to your home, like someone else said. The second was not using your scooter for some sort of cover.
You could have pulled in to the entryway of your driveway and used the scooter as cover to see if the following vehicle was going to engage you. While I don't think scooters make the best cover, they are better than nothing.
You would also be placing a physical barrier between you and the threat, thus making you a "harder" target for a BG. As far as a "Drop Wallet" I can't make that decision for you. It has it's pluses and minuses. I already carry two wallets, where would I place the third?
July 30th, 2007 03:17 AM
Did you get a description or plate number?? May want to warn neighbors and PD of this happening.
July 30th, 2007 03:35 AM
I tell folks to carry a money clip with a fat wad of $1 bills in the middle and maybe a $10 or $5 on the outside, so maybe you get a decent distractor for $10-$20 which is acceptable to me. Gives it enough weight to toss a fair distance.
This is a difficult situation. You're on a very under powered vehicle in a very rural area. I agree DON'T go home! I think I'd be tempted to ditch the scooter at the side of the road and dart into the woods. Take cover behind a nice sized tree and see what might appear in the way of pursuit. That's the Infantry Officer in me, I guess.
I think you've got to compromise somewhere. If you're going to ride a scooter, carry something more ummmm definitive in the way of a sidearm. You live in a rural area. Presumably it's going to take awhile for the cops to arrive after a 911 call. Assuming you can get a cell signal from the scooter. Even if you called from home, it's going to take awhile to get to you. You've taken the first correct steps in carrying the Kel-Tec for self defense and it will do a fine job on a street mugger at point blank range. But that's not this scenario, is it? This situation requires some range and accuracy and either capacity OR a bigger bullet. Actually, consider a Glock M26 or 27. 9mm or 40. You can carry the standard 9 or 10 rd mag and it conceals really well. Then you can carry a M19 or 23 mag along for additional comfort in capacity. I would also carry a tactical flashlight of some kind. Perhaps a SureFire G2 Nitrolon. Fairly inexpensive and yet fully capable of if not blinding an adversary totally blowing any capacity for night vision for over an hour. That gives you a decided advantage.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
July 30th, 2007 08:06 AM
Maybe rig the scooter with smokescreen or oil slick? I agree that going home should be avoided, and what Exsoldier said about a beefier gun if possible, since you have the open spaces of rural America and the lack of cover that a scooter can provide.
July 30th, 2007 09:07 AM
Definitely agreed on not going home. Glad you are okay though. Keep your eyes out
"To blame a gun for a mans decision is to foolishly attribute free will to an inanimate object"- Colion Noir.
July 30th, 2007 12:27 PM
Sounds like your "Spidey Sense" was going off a lot earlier.
Originally Posted by dahenrymd
The most valuable lesson you take away from this experience is to listen to it next time.
"Friend, I would not harm thee for all the world, but thou art standing where I am about to shoot."--Unknown Quaker
July 30th, 2007 01:11 PM
really though. what kind of scooter? would it be viable to just drive it up the next deer path a little way?
To those that paid for my freedom,
I WILL NEVER FORGET.
As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.
July 30th, 2007 03:49 PM
Once the lights went out, I would have gone into attack mode. What I like to do on a bike, and not sure if your scooter would do it as well, is brake, then speed up quite a bit. Shoot down the road some distance, then stop and look right into the oncoming car to see what is going on.
Yeah, being confrontational would maybe have proved to be a mistake. But it would also send the signal that I do NOT want to be messed with, especially if the person had not decided on what they would do.
I would keep a lookout for that same car now that they may know where you live.
July 30th, 2007 10:28 PM
You did not say where they went when you went to the garage. 1/4 mile from home you can change course for a gas station or someplace else, unless you live on a dead end road like I do, then it is a tactical turn in the open field and a game of follow me if you can... to the tree line that is, then I have all the cover in the world and you are in the open.
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
July 31st, 2007 01:18 AM
Overall, good job on getting to a safe spot without incident. Given what you had to work with, I think you did fine!
Now, let's take it apart, a bit. I try to take absolutely nothing for granted, so take that into account. I doubt everything, consider everything as a "sign" and being indicative of something, and try very hard to vary my routine to guard against exactly this sort of thing. Though I have been followed on several occasions for brief periods, through town, I have yet to be caught out at night on a scooter, alone in the boonies. So, you've got at least one experience under your belt that I've not had. Still, let's see what we can do ...
On a scooter and now off the beaten path. That's a tough one. Only after you're out of sight and into the boonies are you sure there might be a problem. Not many choices. Is your scooter very, very fast? How rural is "rural", in terms of how quickly can you be back where people are seeing you or can help you? Boonies, literally, with no restaurant, gas station or any other place with people? If none of that around, your own turf was probably the best option.
Originally Posted by dahenrymd
As for the .380, how well-armed are you, normally? In that situation, did you feel under-gunned? By much? Did you have many spare rounds/magazines? No? You can easily rectify all of that.
Scooter, hm? Completely open and visible to anyone following. Apparently, a slow vehicle. Obviously not capable of high speed or off-road endeavors. Not incredibly well-lit. In other words, at 10pm with a solitary rider, fish bait ... a target. As was apparently the case in this instance.
At that exact point, exactly how many alternative directions could you have gone? Would any of them have been more-secure, better-lit, more-populated than your own driveway? Got a "goat track" or trail you could have scooted up, where a car could not travel?
... I noticed a car following too closely. It matched my every turn until I entered the paved country lane 0.33 miles from my driveway ...
There is something comforting about your own home ground, but as you know: they now know where you live.
Good reminder to have a long-range garage opener on your person, if you're going to be coming in late at night on the scooter. No different than if you were coming in via car. All the more important, now that you've got someone who has sensed a pattern with you ... that you're a scooter-mobile target that lives at that house. Caution is due.
... my wife had left our gate open (the driveway is another 0.25 mi), and I scooted up to the garage without incident.
Dropping the BG before he drops you. Next to that, prayer the BG(s) doesn't hurt you while you dither on whether to drop the BG before he drops you. Standard rules and laws apply, but you've got a lot of circumstances suggesting you're being attacked, at this point. Waiting all the way until forced to toss your wallet the other direction (in the dark, mind you, which won't help his demeanor much) provides few guarantees. The only given here is: the BG is apparently making a move, so decide on what to do about it. Evade, avoid, outrun, go defensive. Until he/they actually attack overtly, you're on shaky legal ground, so have caution and keep your wits. As at all such times, you picks your response and takes your chances.
Which is the response least likely to get me hurt if confronted by an armed BG ...
One thing: Darkness can be your friend, particularly near or on your own home turf. It works against an attacker and for a defender. If on your own home turf, you can use that. You ought to be well aware of every blade of grass within a 100yd swath from your house.
With an apparent BG that knows where you live, on a lower-powered scooter, having a .380ACP and on a darkened country lane, alone, you've got few choices. He knew that. Now, so do you.
I don't want to be a hero, just a healthy husband and dad.
Think for a moment. Put yourself in the BG's shoes for a moment ... and think. You want to attack the guy 150yds ahead of you. He's getting deeper into it, as the minutes roll on. He's on a dark lane, going deeper and darker away from any help. He's not on a high-powered vehicle. He's apparently not armed, but you don't know that. You're possibly with your BG cohort(s), thinking this might be an easy score. One lone GG to be taken down, possibly with firearms; possibly with force of numbers.
Suggestions for guarding against this sort of thing:
- Keep your "radar" on at all times, when out and about. Expect the unexpected. Anticipate that anyone turning off the larger roads to the rural ones is likely following you ... so, prove yourself wrong before you do anything else, such as drawing them to your family.
- Speak with your family immediately. Describe the situation and the risk. Clearly identify that this car's occupants know where you live, know your scooter-based, late-night pattern. Enlist their assistance to beef up the perimeter security and communications. Y'all don't need to be paranoid or fearful, but you do need to be working together on this.
- Get more firepower and keep it with you at all times. Keep spare magazines with you at all times.
- Secure the house. Keep it secured. They know where you live. Might be a good opportunity to review your perimeter-defense plan. Check the alarm's batteries, silent alarm, perimeter/zone capability, comms to the alarm service or police, etc.
- Got dogs? No? If you live in the country ... get one or two.
- For late-night excursions, ditch the scooter and select your higher-powered motorcycle or a car. Keep a locked area on the bike with spare magazines in a pouch that you can quickly access if need be. If you needed to head into the weeds, you could quickly snatch another 4-6 mags and be reasonably well-prepared for a firefight against even a carload of perps.
- Vary your routine. They know where you live, that you're on a slower scooter, that you drive alone at night. You're at risk. Drive elsewhere. Pick another couple/three routes for getting to your country lane. Don't have any? Then, you might have a problem with little recourse.
- Have communications physically on you. The moment you notice turn-for-turn matching, get on the horn and call in the cavalry. (Here's where you see the usefulness of a one-button 911 function on a cell phone.) Cell phone doesn't go everywhere out in the boonies? Consider a GMRS radio and enlist the help of a dozen of your closer rural neighbors as sort of a "neighborhood watch" committee.
- Have a method of opening your gate and/or garage door automatically from a fair distance. Have a quick-opening gate at the opening edge of the property, one that optionally relays a signal to your garage door to open as well (ie, if a "panic" button is hit).
- Listen to that internal "voice" that tells you when the scat's hitting the whirly thing, because, like as not, it is. At that instant, it's time for an alternative plan ... different direction, different speed, proof that all's well, and proactive decisions if it's not.
Given what you had to work with, I think you did very well. Had I been in the boonies and had as few options, I might well not have done much differently. I'd like to think I would not have shown then where I lived, but on a lower-powered scooter and on a dark country lane with few alternatives, frankly I think choice of my own home turf would be the best in that situation, all things considered.
Kudos on surviving. I think the mere fact the car matched your turns and then turned out its lights proves you were being followed. Had you not zipped into a protective area at that moment, I think you would have been attacked. A guess, but a good one I think.
Now, keep your "radar" on HIGH for the couple of mos. They do know where you live. They can now monitor your path and be on the lookout for a scooter-bound single guy. They can lie in wait. I don't mean to scare you. They've already got the ability to ambush you, so don't ignore it; rather, be aware of it and leverage it to your advantage, in terms of preparations. Be cautious. Be aware. Vary your route, times. Vary your vehicle. Ditch the scooter for a few months.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
July 31st, 2007 12:34 PM
I ride a scooter too and if I had to guess, I'd say it was probably just a bunch of young punks messing around with a guy on a scooter. While I've never been followed while riding mine I have people shouting things at me and peeling out behind me all the time.
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