This is a discussion on Unusual scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't usually engage in flights of fancy, but this one is stuck in by craw.
You are at a place that forbids weapons and ...
August 2nd, 2007 10:43 PM
I don't usually engage in flights of fancy, but this one is stuck in by craw.
You are at a place that forbids weapons and have (unwisely) chosen to obey. An armed man displays a weapon and indicates that he will shoot.
You are within arms reach. You have a knife.
1. Go for the disarm.
2. Try to restrain the weapon while delivering a knife attack.
3. Insert alternate idea here.
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
August 2nd, 2007 10:58 PM
If the opportunity presents itself and he is threatening to shoot people, I see no difference between my having a knife or having my gun. Stopping the threat in the most effective way is my goal. In this case, that would probably be an explosive attack, controlling his gun hand while staying as close as possible and stabbing upwards under his ribcage until he stops being a threat.
I should note: I'm assuming that getting away isn't an option (hostage situation) or that he's threatening a member of my family / a friend.
August 2nd, 2007 11:05 PM
3. Lunge towards the aggressor, push muzzle out of my way. Both hands will be engaged in controlling his weapon and both hands. Can't reach for the knife without giving him an advantage. Probably go Mike Tyson on hs ear/face. If I could get his arms pushed to the outside, I would headbut the top of my head into his nose.
Basically, control his arms, and use every part of my body as a weapon.
I've mentioned it before, but I see 2 camps when it comes to confrontations. The gunnies - think they will always be able to go to a gun or a knife or a baton or weapon x and somehow their use of the weapon will save the day. The martial artists - who believe that they will be able to use just their hands and feet and save the day. Both sides are exercising magical thinking or hopeful wishing. And both need a paradigm shift.
Both are wrong. Use whatever tool you can ASAP with your weapon (your mind) guiding your use of the tool. Do it explosively and repeatedly until you are the victor (and the threat is neutralized) or the vanquished (incapacitated).
August 2nd, 2007 11:16 PM
So do we take it that you only train your mind? Hands and feet are tools. Firearms are tools. Knives are tools. Some of us have spent a VERY long time practicing to use ALL of them. The original post can't truly be answered by anyone until they're there. It's one of those questions. I can't detail what I would do short of saying I revert to training, both mentally AND physically.
Originally Posted by sojourner
You can't make a blanket statement that both are wrong. If so, no one would ever survive an encounter.
"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
-The Mist (2007)
August 2nd, 2007 11:23 PM
I train my mind to use multiple tools, e.g., my hands, elbows, head, teeth, knees, pocket knife, ccw handgun, chair, etc. ... The mind "tells the body what to do" and the body does it. The mind and the body have to be trained. Maybe I wasn't clear on this.
I can make a statement that both are wrong, and I still stand by it. If someone only trains a subset of all the tools that are available to them, they are not only incorrect, but foolish.
Not trying to cause a stir, but that is how I feel.
August 2nd, 2007 11:32 PM
I belive the word that come to mind are "Gut him like a fish".
Assuming he is facing me my first slash will be for the inside of the gun wrist and the second will be aimed between his ribs. I was trained to "Get inside his circle" in a gun situation. Attack hard, fast, and as violently as possible. Take him to the floor and kill him. Same thing with a gun fight. Attack with the greatest available force untill the threat stops.
If my obit reads "local man killed trying to disarm gunman with a knife" I'm ok with that.
To those that paid for my freedom,
I WILL NEVER FORGET.
As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.
August 3rd, 2007 12:13 AM
Sojo,where can I get one of them there paradigm shifts?
just funnin' you,don't be mad
August 3rd, 2007 12:31 AM
I think you would need to evaluate and attack the best way you have been trained to stop the threat fast. Distance, surrounding obstacles ,people ect all may alter your decision making.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
August 3rd, 2007 01:57 AM
Too broadly defined scenario to really say with any amount of quality lessons or points to be made. So I am just going to speak generally about handgun disarms in the general sense.
Being successful in disarming someone is going to be dependant on your "relative positioning" to the attacker. If you are beyond arms reach from the attacker when he displays his gun and starts the threats, you have to realize that he is going to do everything he can to keep people from approaching him.
If you are within arms reach it is still pretty sticky situation depending on where you are positioned. Are you directly in front of him at arms length? Are you to his right or left side at arms reach? Are you standing behind him at an oblique angle at arms reach?
There are several disarming tactics to employ from various directions.
Most disarming techniques has to do with trapping the weapon and utilizing leverage against the thumb side of the hand as it grips the gun as well as utilizing wrist and arm locks and maintaining control over where the muzzle points.
These can be accomplished from a variety of positions depending on how you are positioned with the offender and most importantly, where the bystanders are positioned.
You must be very cognizant of "muzzle sweep" and what direction that muzzle is pointing as you do the disarm because in most techniques, there is no guarantee the offender won't or can't pull the trigger at some point.
If he ends up shooting an innocent bystander as a "result" of your "disarming technique", regardless if you are ultimately successful in disarming him, you may and I only stipulate, "may" face some liability and culpability in causing the injury or death of that innocent bystander. (That is going to depend on the mood of the courts and the prosecutor for that area and other circumstances, so just be aware of that!)
One thing I would recommend, is that if you are going to attempt a disarm of the offender and have any reasonable expectation of success, it's going to take use of both hands!
Firearm disarming techniques are "very hands on" and I wouldn't be deluded to believing I could be successful by trying to "trap the gun" with one arm and then stab him with my folding pocket knife in the other hand and end up with anything more than a possible disaster.
One thing about it... It takes a certain level of guts & confidence in your skills to pull off a disarming technique. You can't hesitate, you must use surprise... so don't himhaw around and telegraph your attempt while you try to muster up the courage.
The best course of action is to get some sort of training in either specific disarming techniques or some martial arts training that capitalizes on wrist locks, joint manipulation, traps and leverage.
Remember, if you are "one on one" and only your life is hanging in the balance is one thing. If there is a whole crowd of bystanders and you mess up, it could cost everyone their life by enraging the offender or just by your technique not controlling where the muzzle covers while you employ that technique.
You should also anticipate his response to your disarming attempt. The last thing you want is for it to end up being two people tugging at each other fighting for control of the gun.
Do not assume any of the other bystanders are going to jump in and assist you when things start to go south. They don't want to get shot either and unless you are on an airliner at 30,000 feet where everyone now knows the stakes of what might ultimately happen, don't expect anyone to come to your aid.
Then you'll be seen as the foolish cowboy who didn't know what he was doing and got everyone shot or killed.
JMO as a certified trainer in handgun & long gun retention and disarming techniques. YMMV
I do think this is a good thread as to give people some great food for thought. Have a plan and practice your plan!
Stay Safe! Good Luck.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
August 3rd, 2007 12:38 PM
To a large extent it depends on how close you are.
I will add that, even though it is the oldest trick in the book, the old "hey, look behind you!" thing works almost every time if you really sell it. I have yet to meet ANYONE who won't fall for it if you do it right. That means your eyes open wide, you stare at a spot over their shoulder, your mouth drops slightly... usually you don't have to say anything, at this point the absolute natural human reaction is for them to turn and look, giving you an opening. Sometimes you might have to add a little gasp (much better than actually saying "hey look!").
I know, I know. It sounds corny. Try it though. 99% of people WILL turn and look.
August 3rd, 2007 01:17 PM
Deploy the knife.
Only one hand is needed to momentarily redirect the attackers firearm away from you, as you with the other hand quickly and deeply pierce his body multiple times in multiple places with your knife in hand.
As long as you are out of the firearms imaginary bore line then you are relatively safe even if the BG does manage in the scuffle to discharge the weapon. Ricochet and projectile fragmentation is of course a concern but I'll take that chance rather than stand there directly in front of him hoping that he otherwise misses me.
IMHO at contact distances, close enough for the firearm to be touched by the person not holding/possessing it, a knife is much more useful and actively dangerous than a firearm...when in the hands of a person who has even a modicum of skill and capability.
denverd0n - I agree with you and have done the same in a street fight against a larger & more powerful bodied attacker. It does work and that along with other 'tricks' falls under psych warfare or what we in the day used to refer to as a "psych out". Basically getting into the mind of the other guy if even for a moment and using his own mind to your advantage FTW.
Another one that I've seen directly is to look down at the attackers feet just before being pummeled and loudly with shock exclaim; "What the f### is that!!!". The BG for a moment glances down at his own feet, and boom you close distance to zero with a swift attack. In this case the smaller guy grabbed the bigger guy by the strong arm and begin kneeing him deeply and multiple times in quick succession in the gut and solar plexus. The BG fell to the ground stunned and heaving to breathe. This was a street fight literally on the street as the BG had tried to intimidate the smaller good guy out of his space in line at a nightclub. I have no idea what the smaller good guys training might have been, nor did the BG, but afterward all of the rest f us in line had a great laugh and were practicing on each other what we'd just been 'taught'.
In boxing they use a 'feint' which is similar to same results.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
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