? giving up your gun in an armed robbery. - Page 4

? giving up your gun in an armed robbery.

This is a discussion on ? giving up your gun in an armed robbery. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Gabill I didn't know what Marine FAST was until I looked it up. 40 years ago we didn't call it that. I ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabill View Post
    I didn't know what Marine FAST was until I looked it up. 40 years ago we didn't call it that. I was a Marine that worked guarding and recovering nuclear weapons. I was called a Marine. I guess they have to have fancy names these days.
    In the 80's under, with the influx of dollars to the military, they restructured to better meet perceived needs abroad.
    Basically, all they did was reallocate Barracks and Sea Duty assignments into geographic areas of responsibility for a more mobile response.

    It is just a more specialized version of the Marine Security Forces B-Billet jobs.

    I didn't ask for it, but they sent my ass to Rota Spain as an assistant Cadre Instructor NCO for my last year, of which I was only there for a total of 7 months.

    Ironically, that is the team that was finally dispatched to Benghazi, and could have been there within a couple of hours or so if the powers that were had done the right thing.
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    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight"
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  2. #47
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Marines were not in MOG. It was US Army, Rangers, Delta, 10th mountain.


    In the mid 1980's we had a group of robbers operating in Ft Worth, Tx. They would hit grocery stores during daylight and execute witnesses. I knew then and there that I was not gonna knee or lay down for a bullet. I trained my wife and bought her a holster purse even though there was no CC in Texas at the time. I carried 3 pistols on/off duty. S&W 686 6", 2.5" and a Colt Officers model 45. My wife carried a Beretta 380 model 84. Her job was to take care of the baby and stay in my view, but to get away from me. I told her that when I made my move everyone would be shooting at me. My plan was dynamic, explosive violence focused on BG's.

    You need to master your gun, carry enough gun and have a plan.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
    Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
    Amen

  3. #48
    Member Array packnrat's Avatar
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    depends.
    do they know i have a gun?
    is a gun held to my head?
    a gun held to another's head?

    as long as they do not know about my gun(s). i might have a upper hand to play.


    .

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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Marines were not in MOG. It was US Army, Rangers, Delta, 10th mountain.


    In the mid 1980's we had a group of robbers operating in Ft Worth, Tx. They would hit grocery stores during daylight and execute witnesses. I knew then and there that I was not gonna knee or lay down for a bullet. I trained my wife and bought her a holster purse even though there was no CC in Texas at the time. I carried 3 pistols on/off duty. S&W 686 6", 2.5" and a Colt Officers model 45. My wife carried a Beretta 380 model 84. Her job was to take care of the baby and stay in my view, but to get away from me. I told her that when I made my move everyone would be shooting at me. My plan was dynamic, explosive violence focused on BG's.

    You need to master your gun, carry enough gun and have a plan.
    I explained early on to my wife that when it starts, I am about to become a bullet magnet, so her job is to get away from me and off the line to safety.

    We had an incident that turned out OK in which the drill got a practical application. As soon as I told her "It's happening", she was in the wind, gone, poof, but creating enough of a distraction in her departure that it messed with the BGs' OODA loop. Like I said, it turned out OK, but still, I was very impressed with her suspension of disbelief and move to action.
    “I can explain it to you, but I can't comprehend it for you.”

    Ed Koch

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    My wife packs her own protection, and she is as loyal as an Indian warriors squaw.
    Aint know way she is running away; she's a stand by your man, type of gal:)
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight"
    -Jeff Cooper

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    OK, so before the thread goes away, I thought I'd share a video that illustrates a similar situation. You may have already seen this one, but in any case, the set up is:
    1. in a crowded barber shop outside Kalispell, Montana
    2. of five or so barber chairs, you're in the second one with the usual drape over your clothes
    3. Two actors come rushing in, one bearing a handgun, the other a shotgun
    4. As an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., you are definitely carrying, right hip, let's say OWB.
    5. It's a complete surprise, and they have the drop on you, shotgun pointed your way from about 5 feet, and the guy with the handgun incidentally rushes you first, but then quickly, before you have a chance to respond, turns his attention to others, going through their pockets, etc. while the shotgun is pointed down the length of the barber shop.
    6. One by one, the guy with the handgun gets what he wants from each person's pockets, and there's maybe one or two more people to go before he gets to you, and then they'll most likely rush out as fast as they came in, hightailing it out of there, you're guessing.
    7. Question that goes through your mind is, are they going to be leaving with my gun, or...am I going to open pandora's box and release the Kraken.

    Watch the video, and before completing it, pause it around 1:15, then 1:20, then 1:25 and ask yourself what you'd do. Keep in mind, if you don't draw, they could be gone in under two minutes, albeit with your gun, and if you do draw, several customers could be dead in those same few minutes. All a matter of probabilities and your capabilities vs theirs:
    (the face of the S.H.I.E.L.D. agent is obscured for obvious reasons. )

    WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT; RAW VIDEO : Shootout in barbershop - wistv.com - Columbia, South Carolina









    Here's an "ASP" narrated version, which is interesting to hear as well (see below, down further to hide outcome in title):






















    Last edited by erichard; December 24th, 2016 at 04:52 PM.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquaman View Post
    I forgot to post a picture of my bad self
    We got a lot of internet ninjas here. We also have a lot of these:
    ? giving up your gun in an armed robbery.-gun-forum-expert.jpg

    My strategy? I will soil my britches so they won't want to search me. Then, when they least suspect it, I will put them in deep sh-t.
    Aquaman and rcsoftexas like this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    OK, so before the thread goes away, I thought I'd share a video that illustrates a similar situation. You may have already seen this one, but in any case, the set up is:
    1. in a crowded barber shop outside Kalispell, Montana
    2. of five or so barber chairs, you're in the second one with the usual drape over your clothes
    3. Two actors come rushing in, one bearing a handgun, the other a shotgun
    4. As an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., you are definitely carrying, right hip, let's say OWB.
    5. It's a complete surprise, and they have the drop on you, shotgun pointed your way from about 5 feet, and the guy with the handgun incidentally rushes you first, but then quickly, before you have a chance to respond, turns his attention to others, going through their pockets, etc. while the shotgun is pointed down the length of the barber shop.
    6. One by one, the guy with the handgun gets what he wants from each person's pockets, and there's maybe one or two more people to go before he gets to you, and then they'll most likely rush out as fast as they came in, hightailing it out of there, you're guessing.
    7. Question that goes through your mind is, are they going to be leaving with my gun, or...am I going to open pandora's box and release the Kraken.

    Watch the video, and before completing it, pause it around 1:15, then 1:20, then 1:25 and ask yourself what you'd do. Keep in mind, if you don't draw, they could be gone in under two minutes, albeit with your gun, and if you do draw, several customers could be dead in those same few minutes. All a matter of probabilities and your capabilities vs theirs:
    (the face of the S.H.I.E.L.D. agent is obscured for obvious reasons. )

    WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT; RAW VIDEO : Shootout in barbershop - wistv.com - Columbia, South Carolina









    Here's an "ASP" narrated version, which is interesting to hear as well (see below, down further to hide outcome in title):
    What's the big deal? They are amateurs.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
    Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
    Amen

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    OK, so before the thread goes away, I thought I'd share a video that illustrates a similar situation. You may have already seen this one, but in any case, the set up is:
    1. in a crowded barber shop outside Kalispell, Montana
    2. of five or so barber chairs, you're in the second one with the usual drape over your clothes
    3. Two actors come rushing in, one bearing a handgun, the other a shotgun
    4. As an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., you are definitely carrying, right hip, let's say OWB.
    5. It's a complete surprise, and they have the drop on you, shotgun pointed your way from about 5 feet, and the guy with the handgun incidentally rushes you first, but then quickly, before you have a chance to respond, turns his attention to others, going through their pockets, etc. while the shotgun is pointed down the length of the barber shop.
    6. One by one, the guy with the handgun gets what he wants from each person's pockets, and there's maybe one or two more people to go before he gets to you, and then they'll most likely rush out as fast as they came in, hightailing it out of there, you're guessing.
    7. Question that goes through your mind is, are they going to be leaving with my gun, or...am I going to open pandora's box and release the Kraken.

    Watch the video, and before completing it, pause it around 1:15, then 1:20, then 1:25 and ask yourself what you'd do. Keep in mind, if you don't draw, they could be gone in under two minutes, albeit with your gun, and if you do draw, several customers could be dead in those same few minutes. All a matter of probabilities and your capabilities vs theirs:
    (the face of the S.H.I.E.L.D. agent is obscured for obvious reasons. )

    WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT; RAW VIDEO : Shootout in barbershop - wistv.com - Columbia, South Carolina









    Here's an "ASP" narrated version, which is interesting to hear as well (see below, down further to hide outcome in title):
    What's the big deal? They are amateurs.
    Flip the scenrio, what if they are not? As an example playing devils advocate. If I were on the red team, first thing to do is eliminate the hostages who I see as threats, the ones that could be cowboys and do it well to ensure compliance of the other hostages. Whats your play then? Granted I am weak, cowardly and unskilled in firearms or edged weapons and could never play the red team but I am interested in what would someone who is capable of defending themselves do in the face of extremely violent hostage takers.

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Marines were not in MOG. It was US Army, Rangers, Delta, 10th mountain.


    In the mid 1980's we had a group of robbers operating in Ft Worth, Tx. They would hit grocery stores during daylight and execute witnesses. I knew then and there that I was not gonna knee or lay down for a bullet. I trained my wife and bought her a holster purse even though there was no CC in Texas at the time. I carried 3 pistols on/off duty. S&W 686 6", 2.5" and a Colt Officers model 45. My wife carried a Beretta 380 model 84. Her job was to take care of the baby and stay in my view, but to get away from me. I told her that when I made my move everyone would be shooting at me. My plan was dynamic, explosive violence focused on BG's.

    You need to master your gun, carry enough gun and have a plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I explained early on to my wife that when it starts, I am about to become a bullet magnet, so her job is to get away from me and off the line to safety.

    We had an incident that turned out OK in which the drill got a practical application. As soon as I told her "It's happening", she was in the wind, gone, poof, but creating enough of a distraction in her departure that it messed with the BGs' OODA loop. Like I said, it turned out OK, but still, I was very impressed with her suspension of disbelief and move to action.
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    My wife packs her own protection, and she is as loyal as an Indian warriors squaw.
    Aint know way she is running away; she's a stand by your man, type of gal:)
    My wife does not carry, but fully understands the principle that if I tell her to move, she is to get the hell away from me and let me do whats needed. I would hope that others would be doing the same with their loved ones.
    Mike1956 and lakeofmirrors like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    And Shepards we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee,
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, So that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command,
    And we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be,

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    My wife does not carry, but fully understands the principle that if I tell her to move, she is to get the hell away from me and let me do whats needed. I would hope that others would be doing the same with their loved ones.
    Mine doesn't carry, either. I'm OK with that.
    “I can explain it to you, but I can't comprehend it for you.”

    Ed Koch

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Mine doesn't carry, either. I'm OK with that.
    I am to. She knows how to use the AK and loves it. If needed for HD she will be an asset, but out in public she doesnt want to. Which is okay by me.
    Mike1956 and oneshot like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    And Shepards we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee,
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, So that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command,
    And we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be,

  14. #58
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    What's the big deal? They are amateurs.
    I have watched many, many of these defensive type videos. In the vast majority, when one actor gets taken down, the others are all scrambling to beam out of there, not in the least interested in fighting it out or helping their compatriot...however, you can't always count on it. The shotgun guy could very well have hit the good guy in the back as he was aiming down the shop, game over.

    In many ways, it's as much a psychological game as a match up of skill sets, and often the guy with the biggest coconuts wins the day. This guy outmatched them in b@lls that day.

    The big problem is that many/most of these guys have no concept of preserving life. That concept is an abstraction that doesn't resonate within them. Call'em psychopaths, or call them testosterone pumped up punks, but they simply don't have a developed sense of conscience yet. It's roll of the dice as to whether you are dealing with simply a robber or psychopath. Tough to sort out in a few seconds when they have their game faces on (ie. their psychopath face on.)

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    What's the big deal? They are amateurs.
    I have watched many, many of these defensive type videos. In the vast majority, when one actor gets taken down, the others are all scrambling to beam out of there, not in the least interested in fighting it out or helping their compatriot...however, you can't always count on it. The shotgun guy could very well have hit the good guy in the back as he was aiming down the shop, game over.

    In many ways, it's as much a psychological game as a match up of skill sets, and often the guy with the biggest coconuts wins the day. This guy outmatched them in b@lls that day.

    The big problem is that many/most of these guys have no concept of preserving life. That concept is an abstraction that doesn't resonate within them. Call'em psychopaths, or call them testosterone pumped up punks, but they simply don't have a developed sense of conscience yet. It's roll of the dice as to whether you are dealing with simply a robber or psychopath. Tough to sort out in a few seconds when they have their game faces on (ie. their psychopath face on.)
    Isn't what you are saying underestimating the threat?

  16. #60
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    Here is a different scenario pre-911 BTW. In texas there was a place called the USAF information warfare center. General Minihan, former director of NSA, built it and that lead to his appointment as head of NSA. I was asked hypothetically by NSA office of chief scientist (whose name was George Cotter who reported to Minihan) and USAF Information Warfare Center in preparation for VASEX how would I penetrate and compromise that facility one of whose jobs was to control access to a SAC wing of B52 bombers with nuke ordinance.

    My response was am I a paid for terrorist in this exercise or a fundamentalist. They laughed and said whats the difference and I said one is cheaper than the other. So they said ok, your paid for version.

    My response was, I assemble two five man teams. One team is responsible for snatching the head IT guy and getting network autentication credentials. They have him record a message that he is sick and will not be in. This recording is played to record a voice mail to his boss. Once the credentials are obtained and message recorded then time for the 55 gallon burner drum, lye and sigh.

    Second team penetrates facility, knowing that rapid reaction force is 20 minutes response. Four blow a hole in the side of the building and kill everyone one in sight before blowing the equipment and the building to pieces.

    As the rapid reaction force shows up, fifth guy with a barrett 50 on another building roof starts creating chaos. Meanwhile the other four are leaving and shooting all that moves.

    Simultaneously, team two has used the codes obtained from the (old) IT guy and they have penetrated and disbled the SAC wing (sorry no lone zones just did not work out).

    The response from the DoD was, "but you were supposed to attack through the firewall!?"

    I just smiled and waved.

    The point was is if your opponent thinks asymmetricslly and you don't your toes up.

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