? giving up your gun in an armed robbery. - Page 6

? giving up your gun in an armed robbery.

This is a discussion on ? giving up your gun in an armed robbery. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by nmbr5 Despite the heavy American losses this was one of the most one-sided battles in modern history. The Clinton Administration subsequently tucked ...

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Thread: ? giving up your gun in an armed robbery.

  1. #76
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmbr5 View Post
    Despite the heavy American losses this was one of the most one-sided battles in modern history. The Clinton Administration subsequently tucked tail and pulled everyone out, horrified, and the UN ultimately pulled the plug on Restore Hope, leaving Aidid free to do as he pleased.
    And, as I told my liberal uncle back when it happened, it emboldened what was to become Al Qaida. My uncle's son, my first cousin, was a marine helicopter pilot at the time, and my uncle felt the move by Clinton would put his son at less risk indirectly, overall, since we'd be away from one more battlefield where his son could be sent. I argued at the time that this would demonstrate to the enemy that they need only bloody our nose to make us run away, and this is exactly what Osama Bin Laden expressed as he planned 9-11. In that case, Bin Laden miscalculated, but at great cost to us. Maybe we shouldn't have been in Somalia to start, but to leave at that moment was definitely a sign of weakness, and most of the world make decisions based on weak vs strong rather than based on rule of law, etc.

    Another battle of overwhelming odds this past century was portrayed in Mel Gibson's "We Were Soldiers". It dramatized the Battle of Ia Drang, one of the first big battles for the U.S. in Vietnam. That and Black Hawk Down are two of my favorite battle movies. Just amazing stories. You wouldn't believe them if they weren't actually true stories.

  2. #77
    Member Array nmbr5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    My understanding is that was navy SEAL that landed.
    SEALs were a part of the amphibious landing, but it was a Marine Recon operation. Most of the American boots on ground after that were Marine grunts too, until TF Ranger arrived. TF Ranger consisted of Army (unit) assault forces, but USAF Special Tactics and Navy SEAL personnel were involved as well. 3rd Batt Rangers provided blocking/containment forces. 10th Mountain Div was in country as a QRF for TF Ranger. The hospital at the international airport was mostly staffed by Air Force medics. Intel, of course, included people from all 4 branches.

    My main point was, it was far from a unilateral Army op. It was a UN op and later, the strike force deployed was a joint SOCOM deal, as they all are.
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  3. #78
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    I am not giving up my gun. At the first opportunity I will take out the robber/robbers. I refuse to put my life in the hands of a desperate individual with a deadly weapon.
    Remind me to never try and rob you (and several others here) at gun point.

    Like I said, I agree with you up to the point where it stops making sense for me.

    I will say, the advantage of being of this never surrender mindset is that you are more mentally prepared to enter the fray when the time comes and will be more committed to winning than others could ever be. That's a huge advantage, assuming you don't miscalculate and get in over your head or beyond your luck.
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  5. #79
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    That's a huge advantage, assuming you don't miscalculate and get in over your head or beyond your luck.
    That is why one trains, plans, practices.
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  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosler Guy View Post
    Confusion is one of your best allies in situations like this. Anything to buy time through distraction such as pointing to the guy three people down that they already checked and saying that guy is holding out on you. He has (fill in the blank) valuable hidden. When they look over at him you draw. Fumbling for stuff and acting nervous while accidentally dropping things is another tactic. Whatever you can do to divert attention and buy time/distance.
    I was thinking I would point at THAT GUY and scream, "He's got a GUN!"

    That should put the focus on someone else!

    Reminds me of the notion of always taking a friend along who can't run when in Grizzly country.
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  7. #81
    VIP Member Array Fizban's Avatar
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    let's say with the shotgun aimed at you from 6 feet? Do the odds not matter to you at all?
    If you know what to look for, you can tell if a person is ready to run off and who isn't. If the guy looks like he wants to bolt with the goods, I will give him my wallet. If they have the look and manner of someone who is going to do me in, I'm gonna fight regardless of the odds. If I don't have a feeling either way... I will likely fight. If something bad is going to happen to me, it wont be while I stood with my hands in my pockets and waited for it. That's just me. I live by that code and yeah, ive had my rear end handed to me a few times.
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  8. #82
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    Survival of 'regular folks' vary. If the bad guys start herding all the hostages to a back room, the probability is the hostages are all going to be killed, based on reports.

    No lawman who ever surrendered his or her sidearm has survived being held hostage due to the bad guys decision. All have been shot, some more efficiently than others. I can see nothing good coming from surrender. I may get killed in the process. I will probably get killed anyway.
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  9. #83
    Member Array Bailey48's Avatar
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    Fight, Flight, Freeze.

    You're going to do one of those three.

  10. #84
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    Christmas Eve in Philly an 80+ year old store owner took 12 rounds and was killed. I'm no hero, but I don't think people give a damn if they kill you or not. Food for thought when you consider what you'd do. Like terrorism, don't analyze the situation in your terms or values. Use the street rules to judge the situation. Use the law to guide your actions.
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  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    For some robberies you may have an easy and good way to draw and confront the bad guy, and for some, where you are ambushed and caught flat footed, you may be forced to comply. This can happen with multiple attackers or where they are armed with AR/AK's or where there are many innocent people that could be caught in the crossfire, etc., to make it more extreme. Everyone most likely has a limit where they will turn to compliance over combat. That's the assumption that I think is true for even the most aggressive amongst us.

    Whatever that limit is for you, let's say it is unfolding before your eyes. Now let's add one new variable: you can see that rather than asking for wallets and phones and purses, they are patting everyone down and going through all pockets to check for cash. Your very real fear is that if they pat you down, they will more than likely find your gun and take it. That's what's going through your mind at the moment you see how it's going down (let's say at least one armed gunman and one accomplice gathering the booty, which seems pretty typical).

    Are you more likely to draw at some point and fight given that you see the extensive pat down happening? Would it be highly likely you'd draw to avoid giving up your gun? Or, is your limit for when to resist the same, regardless of whether they are likely to find your gun? In that case, you just feel the danger is high enough for you, your family, and other innocents that the gun is not so significant an issue to change your typical strategy when caught flat footed and the robber in charge.

    Does the increased chance of giving up your gun alter the strategy?

    Since everybody here carries presumably, it might be something to consider ahead of time.
    This reminds me of a question that the owner of troysgate ask to folks--
    What do you do when you are down on your knees with a gun to the back of your head???

    You die, you have waited way to long to act to defend yourself.
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  12. #86
    Member Array packnrat's Avatar
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    I am not leo.

    not my job to "take down" a crook.

    my line of thinking for this reply is the classic bank robbery.
    open area lobby. desks. chairs. couple roof supports. lots of windows, (armored? ).

    if we are in a line and they are searching us.
    we are scatted around, trying to not get in the bg's way.
    bg's just want the money and get out.
    way to many variables here.
    worst case i lose a gun, but might keep my life.

    if they shoot one of us hostages. different things here.
    now comes into play of protecting another.
    i can not say i would do "this" or "that".

    but if it came down to it.
    the bg with the baddest gun? (he has full auto others have semi auto/pistols).
    the one who is in control? (chop off the head of the snake).
    the one closest to me? (easiest to shoot, biggest threat to my person).
    "to me" worst threat? (how to define??? the "crazy one" in the group of thugs?).
    other options?

    not sure what swat is up to. are they about to crash in? would i screw-up there plan?
    i am not a leo so have no protections under the law. (cop privileges here). so my job in this deal is not to enforce the law, but just to survive it so i (others) can live another day.


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  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by packnrat View Post
    I am not leo.

    not my job to "take down" a crook.

    my line of thinking for this reply is the classic bank robbery.
    open area lobby. desks. chairs. couple roof supports. lots of windows, (armored? ).

    if we are in a line and they are searching us.
    we are scatted around, trying to not get in the bg's way.
    bg's just want the money and get out.
    way to many variables here.
    worst case i lose a gun, but might keep my life.

    if they shoot one of us hostages. different things here.
    now comes into play of protecting another.
    i can not say i would do "this" or "that".

    but if it came down to it.
    the bg with the baddest gun? (he has full auto others have semi auto/pistols).
    the one who is in control? (chop off the head of the snake).
    the one closest to me? (easiest to shoot, biggest threat to my person).
    "to me" worst threat? (how to define??? the "crazy one" in the group of thugs?).
    other options?

    not sure what swat is up to. are they about to crash in? would i screw-up there plan?
    i am not a leo so have no protections under the law. (cop privileges here). so my job in this deal is not to enforce the law, but just to survive it so i (others) can live another day.


    .
    Bolded: Worst case would have to be, they kill you when they find the gun.

    if they shoot one of us hostages. different things here. now comes into play of protecting another.

    I'll be more concerned about them shooting me next when I react to their starting to shoot people, not so much protecting others. I think keeping ones priorities straight is a first step to surviving.
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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    As a former Marine FAST member, I think some people are filled with delusions of grandeur....
    ^^^HeHeHe^^

    Quote Originally Posted by rcsoftexas View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    What Glockman10mm said!

    Additionally, First possible opportunity the head robber is going down then hopefully the two other muppets will just pass out.........one way or another.

    You're getting better at this scenario stuff. I like it.

    Merry Christmas!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911srule View Post
    Surrender to a criminal? That should NOT be in ones fighting mindset imho.
    I'm in this camp here^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    They are not gonna be getting to me. Might take a bullet, Oh well. Like was said, throw some confusion over their way; I.E. "Holy crap the cops are here" (hopefully they turn and look) and YOU draw and start slinging lead. You get the idea.
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