To Call Or Not To Call

This is a discussion on To Call Or Not To Call within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey First off, you must make sure that you can protect yourself on the spot, so the telephone call to 911 comes ...

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Thread: To Call Or Not To Call

  1. #16
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    First off, you must make sure that you can protect yourself on the spot, so the telephone call to 911 comes second to making sure that I will be able to bring my gun to bear. In flying, we say that the order of priority is, "Aviate... Navigate... Communicate." It does you no good to be talking with air traffic control if you're about to hit a mountain. They can't save you from that over the radio.

    Likewise with a gun: if two guys are coming at me in the lot, if I have a 911 operator on the phone but I'm so preoccupied with the conversation that I can't/don't draw/operate my gun, what good will she do me? Not any.

    In Florida, we are protected from prosecution and civil liability if we use a gun because we "reasonably feared" harm or death. I don't think that means we have to SEE A WEAPON. Two guys with a menacing demeanor, in an unpopulated, dimly lit area, who don't stop after I warn them that I feel threatened, are enough to make a "reasonable person" fear for his safety, so I don't think that drawing and even pointing a gun would legally constitute "brandishing." Nope.
    The civil and criminal immunity only applies in your home, or inside your vehicle. You do not have either civil nor criminal immunity for actions outside the home or your vehicle. (F.S. 776.013)

    On the other hand, in Florida we also have a three year mandatory prison term for aggravated assault with a firearm.

    Let's say these two are not criminals, but rather are legitimately in the area. You've pulled a gun on them, and they have run off in fear. And called the police.

    Three years is a long time to bunk with Mongo......

    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I don't think the law says you have to see a weapon; only that you have to be in reasonable fear of injury or death. To me, the only difference if there was a knife/gun/bat, would be that there was even less doubt about the reasonableness of your actions.
    But you'd best have a solid "reasonable fear". Two guys 30 feet away in a public parking lot, one of whom is carrying an object does not, IMHO, provide sufficient reasonable fear to draw a weapon.

    You could get lucky and get the charge reduced to careless display, which is only a misdemeanor.

    See Jon Gutmacher's Florida Firearms, pp 214-219, for an analysis of the problems with displaying a firearm.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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  3. #17
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the responses so far.

    The thread did get a bit sidetracked onto whether drawing (and the other tactics) were appropriate for the scenario. There were some very good thoughts as to how to handle that situation. What I wanted to set up, however, was a situation where presenting the weapon was absolutely justified. And the BGs were, indeed, BGs.

    From the responses, even with the clarification, it seems the correct response is to call 911. Still, with no direct confrontation, it certainly is tempting to simply go home and thank God nothing bad happened because you were prepared.

  4. #18
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    He who calls 911 first gets to be the "victim" and the other players are the suspects.

    Or at least that was the take of the deputy who taught our CWFL class.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Ride4TheBrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Do you call 911 or do you simply go to your car and leave?
    Bingo.
    "We must remember that one man is much
    the same as another, and that he is best
    who is trained in the severest school."
    ~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War

  6. #20
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    Post Helpful Hint - Slightly Off Topic But, Related

    And for those of you who do not want to buy a cell phone.

    If a family member or one of your friends or relatives gets a new phone ask them for their old phone and the charger because you can still use that phone to call 911 only.

    You wont be able to make any other calls with it but, 911 Emergency should still connect as long as you keep it charged.

    So you can own a free Emergency Only phone with no monthly charges.

  7. #21
    Member Array Ping Ping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    And for those of you who do not want to buy a cell phone.

    If a family member or one of your friends or relatives gets a new phone ask them for their old phone and the charger because you can still use that phone to call 911 only.

    You wont be able to make any other calls with it but, 911 Emergency should still connect as long as you keep it charged.

    So you can own a free Emergency Only phone with no monthly charges.
    +1

    I don't feel it's reasonable to carry a gun and not a phone.

    To answer the question. YES! ANY time your gun comes out, you call 911. The statement that "he who calls 911 first usually wins", couldnt be more true.

    All you need to justify presenting a CCW is an "overwhelming fear of imminent death, or grievous bodily harm." The three criteria for the would be assailants are, 1) Opportunity 2) Ability 3) Intent.

    The "reasonable response" to these is, an "overwhelming fear of imminent death, or grievous bodily harm."

    Gun comes out. Assailants retreat, or fail to retreat. In the latter case, gun is discharged until threat is neutralized.

    One MUST train this scenario so thoroughly that there is NO thinking involved. In FoF, thinking gets you killed.

    Holster the gun. Unholster the phone.
    "Happiness, is a warm gun" -St. John of Liverpool

    Proud to be an infidel.

  8. #22
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    In Florida, we are protected from prosecution and civil liability if we use a gun because we "reasonably feared" harm or death. I don't think that means we have to SEE A WEAPON. Two guys with a menacing demeanor, in an unpopulated, dimly lit area, who don't stop after I warn them that I feel threatened, are enough to make a "reasonable person" fear for his safety, so I don't think that drawing and even pointing a gun would legally constitute "brandishing." Nope.
    In truth, Florida laws are very similar to AZ's when it comes to self-defense. You do not need to see a clearly-defined weapon to pull yours. The best bet -- seems this is still a hypothetical situation -- is to review it like you would if you were actually charged with aggravated assault (aka "brandishing"; in AZ) and how you would articulate it in court. 1) Situation happens at night which is when most crimes occur. 2) Two men involved, setup for disparity of force. 3) One of the men had an object in his hand (doesn't matter what it was). 4) The men were in a direct path to you (also explain any possible/non-possible destinations behind you). 5) Both men continued their direct path to you after issuing them a verbal command to stop. 5) Given the aforementioned items, caused you to be in fear for severe bodily harm or possible death.

    Cheers.
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I am sorry, but if someone is in a parking lot and tells me to not come any closer at a distance of 20 yds or 60 ft, I am going to ignore them. That is regardless of what I look like.
    While I agree with the rest of your post I have to disagree with this statement. Why continue to approach a stranger that is agitated and fearful, especially after they have voiced that fear? They might have a gun, be a on drugs or mentally ill and any further move toward that person might get you shot. I would back off until the guy was in his car. Seems to me that your advice to alter ones course of direction, would apply to both sides in this situation.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherokeetad View Post
    While I agree with the rest of your post I have to disagree with this statement. Why continue to approach a stranger that is agitated and fearful, especially after they have voiced that fear? They might have a gun, be a on drugs or mentally ill and any further move toward that person might get you shot. I would back off until the guy was in his car. Seems to me that your advice to alter ones course of direction, would apply to both sides in this situation.
    The reason is simple. If I am going about my business and for some reason you don't like what I am doing, I am not going to pay any attention to your commands. If I am on your property that is one thing. If I am in a public parking lot doing my thing, don't be so paranoid. Maybe I am walking to my car. If your heading to your car from the mall or walmart some night, and somone the next row of cars over from you, that is about 60 ft. says stop don't come any closer, come on, are you really going to stop walking to your car.

    Now if you have a gun or are mentally ill or on drugs, well we will cross that bridge when we get to it, hopefully I am prepared for that scenario.

    As for me altering my course, well if I feel there is a danger, I will alter my course, but not because you think your in danger for some unknown reason. There are lots of paranoid people out there, that doesn't mean that I have to live in their world and by their rules.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #25
    Member Array kd5nrh's Avatar
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    Another bonus to calling 911 ASAP is that, at least in TX, interfering with an emergency call is a class A misdemeanor, so you can add that to your justification for any action you take.

    42.062. INTERFERENCE WITH EMERGENCY TELEPHONE
    CALL. (a) An individual commits an offense if the individual
    knowingly prevents or interferes with another individual's ability
    to place an emergency telephone call or to request assistance in an
    emergency from a law enforcement agency, medical facility, or other
    agency or entity the primary purpose of which is to provide for the
    safety of individuals.
    (b) An individual commits an offense if the individual
    recklessly renders unusable a telephone that would otherwise be
    used by another individual to place an emergency telephone call or
    to request assistance in an emergency from a law enforcement
    agency, medical facility, or other agency or entity the primary
    purpose of which is to provide for the safety of individuals.
    (c) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor, except that the offense is a state jail felony if the actor has previously been convicted under this section.
    (d) In this section, "emergency" means a condition or
    circumstance in which any individual is or is reasonably believed
    by the individual making a telephone call to be in fear of imminent
    assault or in which property is or is reasonably believed by the
    individual making the telephone call to be in imminent danger of
    damage or destruction.

  12. #26
    Member Array cherokeetad's Avatar
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    QUOTE=farronwolf;448538]The reason is simple. If I am going about my business and for some reason you don't like what I am doing, I am not going to pay any attention to your commands. If I am on your property that is one thing. If I am in a public parking lot doing my thing, don't be so paranoid. Maybe I am walking to my car.
    If the person yelling at you knew you where just heading to your car and no threat, then they wouldn't be yelling at you, would they? I agree a person shouldn't be so paranoid but the truth is there are many paranoid folks out there. I once had an strange women follow me into the parking lot of the gym, get out of her car and yell at me to stop stalking her. She jumped back into her car after threatening me and sped off. The police said she was the local "crazy" women, did this 2 or 3 times a week and to ignore her as she was harmless. I'm sure she yells at people in the Wal Mart parking lot everyday. But, is she really harmless?

    If your heading to your car from the mall or walmart some night, and somone the next row of cars over from you, that is about 60 ft. says stop don't come any closer, come on, are you really going to stop walking to your car.
    No, as long as they weren't close to me, I would go on about my business (but still keep an eye on them).

    Now if you have a gun or are mentally ill or on drugs, well we will cross that bridge when we get to it, hopefully I am prepared for that scenario.
    I agee.

    As for me altering my course, well if I feel there is a danger, I will alter my course, but not because you think your in danger for some unknown reason. There are lots of paranoid people out there, that doesn't mean that I have to live in their world and by their rules.
    I agree with part of the first sentence but not the rest. Being cautious of someone acting "paranoid" or who thinks they are in danger of their life is not living in their world or living by their rules. To me it's being smart and living to see another day. A paranoid person can kill you too.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    +1 to calling 911 immediately after any incident where you clear leather. Also, +1 on trying to change course to get to cover or avoid the potential assailants.

    One thing that I'll add is that this sort of scenario is why it's a good idea to carry a flashlight. A good light can help you identify what the guy's got in his hand (making the draw/no-draw decision easier). It can also have a deterrent effect. don't usually carry a flashlight.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Some interesting thoughts. Honestly, at 60 feet, if you match my lateral movement, I'm going to challenge you in about 3 steps. I will have a pistol in my hand, and it will be behind my thigh. Leave or play.

    Calling 911 in a developing situation is frankly foolish. Your attention is diverted by the operator, and one of your hands is tied up. If the other guys have real ill-intent, they certainly have time to stick or shoot you and roll your carcass while 911 tries to get a location on your phone. Not my idea of a good end.

    911 is for when you have secure walls seperating you from the threat, the threat is left behind, or you have "resolved" the threat. I say this, having been part of "911"...

  15. #29
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    I see ample justification for brandishing your firearm. If the question is whether or not to call 911, my response would be NO. Simple reason is that no emergency exists any longer. Whether or not to call the police, the answer is ABSOLUTELY. All police departments have non-emergency numbers. You should always report an incident involving brandishing your weapon or not.
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  16. #30
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    Some of the posts here are just astonishing.

    You are in a public place, where you have a right to be.
    The "bad guys" are also in a public place, where they have a right to be.

    What right do you have giving them commands in a public place? What right do you have to threaten the use of deadly force (which is what drawing the gun is) because they have not obeyed your commands in a public place?

    Think about this from the opposite side. You are returning to your car in a dimly lit parking lot. Suddenly, from 20 yards away, some guy starts yelling at you to stay away from him.

    Are you going to move away from your vehicle to appease this individual?

    We are licensed to carry a firearm for personal protection. It's not a badge, nor some scepter of authority. It certainly doesn't give you the authority or right to exercise control over public property when the spirit moves you.

    As I outlined above, in Florida this scenario could easily get you charged with aggravated assault with a firearm. And IMHO, the charge would be appropriate.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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