To Call Or Not To Call - Page 3

To Call Or Not To Call

This is a discussion on To Call Or Not To Call within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I wouldn't call. If they were bad guys do you really think they'll call 911? If they're good guys and do call, which I seriously ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 47

Thread: To Call Or Not To Call

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    1,155
    I wouldn't call.
    If they were bad guys do you really think they'll call 911?
    If they're good guys and do call, which I seriously doubt, what's the worst case senario? 2 LEO's show up on your door step? You have a reasonable explanation.

    AFS
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at


  2. #32
    Member Array Puppy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    474
    "I wouldn't call.
    If they were bad guys do you really think they'll call 911?"

    But you don't know if they were BG. They could possibly get some big money out of you by calling first. You could be tied up in court, spend a fortune on lawyers, maybe get off, (maybe not>) and they could hit you with a civil suit later.

    Look up the thread on "The armed citizen." Read about the doctor who is being sued by an admitted, convected and jailed burglar. He is suing for use of excessive force.

    Anyone can sue for anything.. There is always some sleaze bag lawyer who will do it for any sleaze bag criminal on the chance he might win and make a few bucks.

    My CCWL instructor told us several scenarios just like the one I described. In one case a guy was walking in the woods when a vicious looking dog came over the hill. The guy fired a warning shot and the dog ran off. Then the dogs owner came over the hill, called 911 and the CCW holder was in court for a long time. And he hadn't even brandished his gun in sight of the dogs owner.

    Everyone can do what they thing best, but I'll follow my instructors advise:

    Always call!

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    1,155
    you just changed the senario.
    Now you've fired a round.
    Then I'd call.

    AFS
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Quote Originally Posted by Puppy View Post
    My CCWL instructor told us several scenarios just like the one I described. In one case a guy was walking in the woods when a vicious looking dog came over the hill. The guy fired a warning shot and the dog ran off. Then the dogs owner came over the hill, called 911 and the CCW holder was in court for a long time. And he hadn't even brandished his gun in sight of the dogs owner.
    Albert Fish. Poor judgement, and a worse attorney.

    Matt, perhaps there are two "operating modes" here. When presented with a scenario, and told that something is causing me to wonder if I need to get ready to call 911, it tells me that something has tripped an inner trigger.

    Now, in the context of a troll-fishing post, many of us seem bloodthirsty and gung-ho, but in the context of people with higher than average situational awareness, and given a scene in which we are alarmed...

    I've worked metropolitan EDs, and corrections, and lived in less than peaceful neighborhoods, and never challenged anyone simply "approaching me" as described. I have drawn, and laid a pistol on the seat, in the open door of my truck while getting gas in Houston, TX. 5AM, and two males approaching the cashier-box on foot. Many gas stations in Houston, like this one, only do business through a sliding drawer, between dusk and dawn, but the glass (at that time) was not bullet resistant. Approach, stance and positioning of the two "got my attention". I'm comfortable letting the "lizard-brain" take over, if it pokes me...

  5. #35
    Member Array Serenity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    113
    So the question is basically do I report myself to the police after possibly committing ADW or agrivated assault on two people that I thought looked "unsavory" and yet failed to actually display any particular criminal action? (I think the gun came out when it didn't have to because there were too many other apparent options in this scenerio but that's not really the point of this thread I guess.)

    I think that all things being equal I call to report the incident and make sure that I get across to the dispatcher and any subsequent LEO's that their demeanor, body language and apparent intent to intercept me on the way to my car made me afraid for my life.

    As other have said...I'd rather be taking to the LEO's as the "victim" than as the guy who didn't call in but got pulled over because he fit the description of "the nut running around the parking lot threatening people with a gun."
    "Friend, I would not harm thee for all the world, but thou art standing where I am about to shoot."--Unknown Quaker

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    "the nut running around the parking lot threatening people with a gun."
    Perhaps that is another issue- they won't see my gun...unless I'm firing. Agree, though, if you have to point your weapon at someone, call as soon as soon as you have cleared the scene.

  7. #37
    New Member Array Shidoshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    10
    It seems to me that most of the answers given depend greatly about scenario the responder has in his mind. When deciding whether or not to pull a weapon, one must be able to articulate one's actions. We all know that there are many non-verbals we use to assess a situation as to whether we are genuinely in fear of serious bodily injury. It seems those who answer that it is appropriate in this case has scenarios in mind in which they are able to articulate these non-verbals such as the look on the aggressor's face, or their gait, the determination or intent as they interpret it. Those against, are more than likely not seeing any type of non-verbals that would indicate a feeling of immenent danger. The most important thing to keep in mind is the totallity of the circumstance and if you are able to paint a picture in which a possible jury will be able to see things from your point of view.

    To answer the original question, however, any time you brandish your firearm, you should notify the police at some point.
    Shidoshi E. Scott Damron
    www.impactninjutsu.com

  8. #38
    VIP Member
    Array Thumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    7,345
    In my state it is not brandishing to "arm yourself" meaning, drawing your weapon and having it at "low ready" however...

    In order to be charged with brandishing, there has to be two witnesses. Guess what? If they both say you pointed your gun at them even if you didn't, you're still in deep poo poo!

    My tactic would have been to quarter myself toward the two approaching subjects, (gun side away) and place my hand on my weapon in preparation to draw. Point with my off hand and in a commanding voice shout "STOP RIGHT THERE!" "Turn around go go back where you came from... NOW!" At that point the ball is in their court.

    That's as far as I will publically speculate. I would definately be calling the police and reporting the incident as well.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  9. #39
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Some of the posts here are just astonishing.

    You are in a public place, where you have a right to be.
    The "bad guys" are also in a public place, where they have a right to be.

    What right do you have giving them commands in a public place?
    Freedom of speech. In the original hypothetical, they were approaching.

    "What right do you have to threaten the use of deadly force (which is what drawing the gun is) because they have not obeyed your commands in a public place?"

    No, not because they did not obey commands but because the person presenting the weapon was in fear of severe bodily harm or death.

    "Think about this from the opposite side. You are returning to your car in a dimly lit parking lot."

    That was not the hypothetical at all. In the original scenario the "unsavory types" were directly approaching, not going to their car.

    "Suddenly, from 20 yards away, some guy starts yelling at you to stay away from him. "

    You make it sound as if 20 yards is a large distance. I figure that it takes 4 to 5 seconds to cover that distance once an attack has begun.

    "We are licensed to carry a firearm for personal protection. It's not a badge, nor some scepter of authority. It certainly doesn't give you the authority or right to exercise control over public property when the spirit moves you."

    I'm not sure where you got that from the hypothetical presented. Of course, in the completely different scenario that you presented perhaps I can understand why you wrote that.

    My firearm is a tool that is used to defend myself and my family. If I wasn't carrying I would still give verbal commands in an attempt to deescalate the potential threat.

    As I outlined above, in Florida this scenario could easily get you charged with aggravated assault with a firearm. And IMHO, the charge would be appropriate.
    Maybe for your scenario, not mine.

  10. #40
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,863
    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Freedom of speech. In the original hypothetical, they were approaching.
    They are in a public place, have made no threat (other than they happen to be walking in your general direction - which is probably also the general direction of another car in the lot, or something on the other side of the lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    No, not because they did not obey commands but because the person presenting the weapon was in fear of severe bodily harm or death.
    They did not obey your commands to leave a public place that you have no lawful control over. You have determined that they are
    "unsavory" and therefore you feel that the threat of deadly force is justified.

    I submit that this will not pass the Reasonable Man standard. Your original scenario says you see these two guys in a parking lot, 20 yards away, no threat being made other than you dislike their appearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    That was not the hypothetical at all. In the original scenario the "unsavory types" were directly approaching, not going to their car.
    So the lot is completely empty, save for you and your car? There is no public space on the other side of this hypothetical lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I'm not sure where you got that from the hypothetical presented. Of course, in the completely different scenario that you presented perhaps I can understand why you wrote that.

    My firearm is a tool that is used to defend myself and my family. If I wasn't carrying I would still give verbal commands in an attempt to deescalate the potential threat.
    Respectfully, I don't see how the hypothetical presented represents a de-escalation of anything. If anything, it represents an escalation.

    It starts by commanding two people who are in a public place and are not threatening you to do something, in a place where you have absolutely no right to command them to do anything.

    Then, when they ignore this command, and without seeing any weapon or even a verbal threat, the hypothetical scenario moves on to escalate the situation much further by introducing the threat of deadly force.

    While I agree that under the circumstances, you might want to do some preparatory things (moving off the line of threat, securing access to your firearm without displaying it, etc), I completely disagree that the decision to draw and display the firearm - with the implicit threat of deadly force that attaches to such an act - is the correct thing to do, or even a reasonable thing to do.

    At the end of the day, you've hypothetically drawn on an individual who has not made any threat, nor displayed any weapon. There was no mention in the scenario of any attempt to evade the subjects. It goes from issuing a command (in a place where you have no lawful authority to do so) to the threat of deadly force.

    With respect, this appears to be a good way to get yourself locked up. Hypothetically.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Then, as perceived, you see no threat, and would take no action. Simple.

    If you felt a need for action, either Thumper's course, or mine, would keep the gun out of sight, but ready. If you want to "clarify" the situation, you don't have to say, "Halt, evildoer, or I shall smite thee!", you can say, "Do you need something?", "Whadda you want?", "Hey, Jim, its good to see...oh, I thought...", whatever, but intitiate an interaction that will give you feedback with an appropriate degree of confrontationalism.

  12. #42
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,863
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Then, as perceived, you see no threat, and would take no action. Simple.

    If you felt a need for action, either Thumper's course, or mine, would keep the gun out of sight, but ready. If you want to "clarify" the situation, you don't have to say, "Halt, evildoer, or I shall smite thee!", you can say, "Do you need something?", "Whadda you want?", "Hey, Jim, its good to see...oh, I thought...", whatever, but intitiate an interaction that will give you feedback with an appropriate degree of confrontationalism.
    Precisely.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  13. #43
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    443
    You think they are the unsavory type and you think you see something in their hand if you are wrong, 911 just got a call from someone that had a gun pulled on them for walking thru a parking lot.

  14. #44
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    With respect, this appears to be a good way to get yourself locked up. Hypothetically.
    So, I assume the answer to the original question is no, you would not call (and turn yourself in.)

    Sorry for getting a bit sidetracked. Personally, I would not handle the situation as presented in the hypothetical. There have been many good suggestions in this thread. I tried to set up a scenario where presenting the weapon was justified in order to address the question in the title of the thread. I missed the target.

  15. #45
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,863


    As a general rule, I would suggest that any time you deliberately display your firearm, you should call 911 as soon as it is safe and practical to do so - getting to be the "victim" can make life go a lot easier.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. got the call
    By justherenow in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: January 27th, 2009, 08:14 PM
  2. Call Before You Dig
    By CT-Mike in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: January 7th, 2009, 10:17 PM
  3. Strange SUV: To Call or Not to Call
    By biasedbulldog in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: January 6th, 2009, 07:51 PM
  4. Got the call... my new XD is in!!!
    By major99 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: November 10th, 2008, 09:17 PM