Is this a right thing to do? - Page 2

Is this a right thing to do?

This is a discussion on Is this a right thing to do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was wrong, I am sorry, Please, forgive me. Evidently, I was mistaken that this situation is viable. I was wrong. I assumed that showing ...

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Thread: Is this a right thing to do?

  1. #16
    Member Array Joel's Avatar
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    Iww,ias,pfm

    I was wrong,
    I am sorry,
    Please, forgive me.


    Evidently, I was mistaken that this situation is viable. I was wrong. I assumed that showing someone my weapon (raising my concealment) would amount to undue escalation and force my opponent's hand to counter the move with either a call to 911 or a justifiable draw on me. Evidently, I was wrong and unaware that this occurs 2 million times annually. (memo to self: stay at home, these people are nuts out here. LOL)

    I was apparently equally off-base when I thought that merely exposing my weapon would cause otherwise vicious people to turn and run. (sorry if I don't promise to try this to see if it works)

    I have a hard head and tend to learn life lessons s-l-o-w-l-y, so I will take this new knowledge learned today and try to remember it.

    Thanks guys, and YES we do learn and share with one another here so that we can not make mistakes for ourselves. I thank everyone who has posted.

    Who knew that lifting my shirt and exposing my concealment would cause people to turn tail and run. Just think what would happen if I curled my lip and showed my teeth? LOL


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FknRa View Post
    If actively persued after an appology and making an attempt to leave I will present my firearm. I hope to never have to use it again, but the one thing I have learned is when someone gets it in their mind to hurt you, you must present the appearance of force quickly enough to dissuade them from further thought of hurting you.
    This is just a guy looking for a fight. IMO, going right to presenting the gun is a bad option. If you CCW then you need to have an empty hand skill set to address this problem. If it escalates from there, then it goes to the gun. My skill set is such that I would rather bring an opponent (weaponless) close in where I can control him. Pain compliance is a powerful tool and also quite embarassing for the one it's applied to.

    This is a forum where people ask questions to hypothetical situations and look for honest opinions in return. I have personally been threatened with "I'm going to cut you up, kill your family, and burn your house down" while at knifepoint. (back in the bouncer days) I then presented my weapon, he dropped the knife and ran.
    Knifepoint = shoot ‘em (if they stick around)!
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    People de-escalate over 2 million potential lethal situations each year by simply displaying a firearm. I personally know someone who has had to do this twice. The desired effect was achieved, the threat turned and left quickly. I would call the police right away as you don't want the aggressor to call first and claim you pulled a gun on him. The scenario you described is reason enough for fear. Disparity of force and threats. Good enough for me.

    Exactly right. Very different from the original post. Michigan allow me to stand my ground, and retreating sometimes can put you in a more vulnerable position. I also think that training yourself to shoot gun no matter what if you pull it means you pull it too late. No scenario you that actually happens to you will be textbook, you must be able to decide on the go. Also, pulling doesn't mean I am not prepared to use it. On the contrary, it means I am darn ready to use it. Showing it to someone who is near enough to take it away is pure idioticy. Distance is you friend.
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  4. #19
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    It is estimated People de-escalate over 2 million potential lethal situations each year by simply displaying a firearm.
    Just curious, but who estimates that and how did they arive at that estimate.

    Sounds a tad bit high...by about 1.99 million. Even 10000 a year would be reason to raise an eyebrow...

    Unless you mean LE and that they are simply carrying open. And even then...

  5. #20
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    This is just a guy looking for a fight. IMO, going right to presenting the gun is a bad option. If you CCW then you need to have an empty hand skill set to address this problem. If it escalates from there, then it goes to the gun. My skill set is such that I would rather bring an opponent (weaponless) close in where I can control him. Pain compliance is a powerful tool and also quite embarassing for the one it's applied to.



    Knifepoint = shoot ‘em (if they stick around)!
    unfortunatly if it goes hand to hand I will probably loose. (Wrecked motorcycle about 4 years ago and I'm a paraplegic now) Thats where I get my mentality of "raise the stakes high enough, fast enough, that it no longer makes me an attractive target.

    Yes I carry a knife, yes I will fight as hard and as fast as possible, I also know that there are limitations to the ammount of force that I can present without bringing tools into play. I have no motor control below my sternum.
    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

  6. #21
    Member Array target1911's Avatar
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    IMPO---------------
    If I feel the need to show my gun,but didnt feel the situation was bad enough to shoot YET (but had the potential to get there) I will have my hand on it ready to draw and not just show it to them. My reasoning for this is......when I call 911 and the LEOs arrive, I want them to know that i was not mearly brandishing or showing off, but that I was fearfull that the situation would turn leathal.
    David

    Ride hard and Shoot safe

    The first rule of gunfighting should be to know when the gunfight starts - being the last one to get the news certainly won't put the odds in your favor.

  7. #22
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    I am not exactly sure of the exact numbers, and I am not going to dig for the specifics just for this post... but Prof. John Lott estimates something like 1.2 million times a year, a firearm is lawfully used to prevent a crime. Now we all know that lawful people are not shooting 1.2 million people every year. I think the facts state that in an overwhelming majority of cases, it's the mere presence of the firearm that foils the crime without shots being fired.

    Now there are those that feel any time you draw a gun but don't fire it, that is the same as "Brandishing." I don't fall into that school of thought. However, I don't believe you should show/draw your gun to anyone in a threatening situation unless you are in reasonable fear of your life or grave bodily harm. That does not mean you have to pull the trigger if it clears leather... but you better be damned ready to in a heartbeat! I am under no illusion that displaying a weapon you'll be able to bluff your way out of a situation. Way too many street thugs live by the way of the gun and are not intimidated by one in the least.

    But an example would be in the case of a person armed with a knife. Most of us have heard of the "Teuller Drill" that demonstrates an average person can cover 7 yards (21 feet) and be able to deliver a lethal blow with a knife or club in less time than it takes you to draw and fire from a holstered position. And even then, if you could get a shot off and hit the attacker, you may still get killed. So what does that mean?

    Well, to me, it says... If someone has a knife and threatening you at some distance... even out past 21 feet, say they are at 32 feet. They have a knife, they are threatening you so in my opinion, they have placed you in jeopardy (verbal and menacing threats for money or whatever), they possess the ability (holding a lethal weapon), but at this juncture, maybe not quite have the opportunity, (still some distance, maybe 32 feet, also maybe an obstical or two between you). So knowing an "average" person can cover a distance of 21 feet before you can draw and get a solid shot off... I am going to draw my gun at this point and display my resolve to end his lethal threat if he doesn't immediately cease and back off! Dennis Teuller who developed the "Teuller Drill" clearly states, you don't have to automatically shoot the person if they are within 21 feet armed with a knife. There may very well be several options available besides taking a mans life. All he is saying is... "Your gun shouldn't still be in your holster if someone armed with a knife is within 21 feet or so!"

    As far as I'm concerned, and my attorney agree's, that is not "brandishing" your weapon! You are meeting a potential life ending threat with a display of overwhelming force and are prepared to fire depending on the actions of the offender. You are putting the ball back in his court, so to speak.

    The whole goal is not to be the first among your ccw friends to "smoke" a bad guy, the goal is to avoid killing someone if at all possible and pulling my gun as I'm looking for options (finding cover, putting more distance and or obsticals between you, and maybe he'll see the error of his ways and back down).

    Brandishing means "to wave or flourish... to display ostentatiously" and to me in this context would mean a certain amount of recklessness or disregard or bravado and not the same intent as meeting a seriously life threatening act of aggression with a measured degree of preparedness to engage that threat. Like Teuller says... "If you're gonna draw your gun, we want you to pull your gun in time to save your life, but just because the gun comes out, doesn't mean you must fire at that point!"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Now regarding a person on parole or probation living with you.

    If the person is on parole or probation for a felony conviction, he is not supposed to be in possession or control of a firearm or ammunition. This applies to the person who is on parole or probation! You do not forfiet your rights of ownership or ability to possess something because of someone else's crime.

    Now is it prudent to own and keep a firearm in the same house as a roommate who is a felon on parole or probation? Probably not, and if he were to steal it or get ahold of it, you may share some culpability by way of recklessness if you can't show that it was constantly secured in a manner that would be suffieciently secure to prevent him from gaining access to it.

    But, mainly not being allowed to own, possess, or have control of firearms is a consequence of his unlawful acts not yours... it's basically his problem and if anyone has to leave, why should you be the one who has the hassle of looking for a new place to live?

    Also, not everyone on parole or probation are felons! There are a lot of people on probation for misdemeanor offenses! An example is someone who was convicted of traffic offenses and given probation instead of a year in jail for their misdemeanor conviction.

    Conviction of misdemeanor offenses does not mandate you forfeit your rights of gun ownership. Conviction of a felony offense does!

    JMHO, I am not an attorney, but hope my opinon may offer some insight!

    As always, check with an attorney for clarification on "legal matters!"

    Stay Safe!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #23
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    Brandishing means "to wave or flourish... to display ostentatiously" and to me in this context would mean a certain amount of recklessness or disregard or bravado and not the same intent as meeting a seriously life threatening act of aggression with a measured degree of preparedness to engage that threat. Like Teuller says... "If you're gonna draw your gun, we want you to pull your gun in time to save your life, but just because the gun comes out, doesn't mean you must fire at that point!"
    + lots Bark'n!!!

    My take 100% re what 'brandishing' is. If I happened to pull back my cover garment to suggest or even show a holstered gun - that is not brandishing per se.

    IMO it has to be in the hand to achieve this - otherwise, trying not to be pedantic, it is simply ''displaying'' - and just now and again that in itself, in certain select circumstances, could give the message needed to defuse and avoid shots fired.

    Opinion of course varies immensely - I accept that when it comes to thoughts on this subject.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  9. #24
    Member Array SubMOA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FknRa View Post
    unfortunatly if it goes hand to hand I will probably loose. (Wrecked motorcycle about 4 years ago and I'm a paraplegic now) Thats where I get my mentality of "raise the stakes high enough, fast enough, that it no longer makes me an attractive target.

    Yes I carry a knife, yes I will fight as hard and as fast as possible, I also know that there are limitations to the ammount of force that I can present without bringing tools into play. I have no motor control below my sternum.
    I'd say this falls into the Disparity of Force realm. An able-bodied man against a wheelchair-bound paraplegic with limited upper-body mobility and strength would equal the same threat as a 300lb. man versus a small woman.

    I hope I don't offend you, and I don't mean to generalize, but often, paraplegics and quadraplegics have underlying, less noticable medical issues, such as colostomy stomas and catheterized bladders or surgically-fused vertebrae.

    Any of these conditions could turn fatal if exacerbated by an attack, even simple assault.

    In my state, I'd say that's legal defense for use of Deadly Force (though I'm not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV).

    If I were in that situation, I'd use whatever tools afforded me to prevent a possibly fatal attack.
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  10. #25
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    SuBMOA, It's fine. Some get pissy, I just try to educate. Chest up I'm in the best shape of my life and If I can get you on the ground we're gonna wrastle. But yes you've got the point. Having a foley catheter ripped out is no fun. 7 of my vertebre are fused/screwed together and it does limit flexability quite a bit.

    Back on the original posters topic, I guess it boils down to situational awareness, mindset, and attitude.

    If you are simply trying to intimidate someone by "Flashing" a gun, you get what you deserve.

    In my mind if you have legal president to show a weapon I would have it in my hand in case I had to use it.

    We carry therefore we are held to a higher standard. If you do one thing to escalate a confrontation it WILL be used against you.

    My biggest piece of advice is to try to stay out of places/situations that look like they are going to become confrontations.

    If you are at someone's house and you have beef with someone is there or shows up. Excuse yourself and come back later. Reputation or being a "Tough Guy" is not worth jail time.

    As to the legal question about probation/parole, (Please see my signature below)

    If you are in sole control of the weapon, and they have no access to the weapon, you will probably be ok. HOWEVER, if you don't have them locked up/on your person, and your house gets searched, or if one of them gets caught with your weapon, not only will they get in trouble, YOU WILL TOO.

    That said, I used to live with a felon. (he was 17 and the judge made an example out of him) I would not only trust him with my life, but I would trust him with the lives of my family/children . Alot depends on the person. Are they likely to do something brash if angered? If you have even the slightest doubt about their character, I would find a new roommate before introducing firearms into the mix.

    Just like riding in a car with drugs. you might be the passenger, but if it's within arms reach you can be charged with posession. Same goes with your gun and their law issues.
    Last edited by FknRa; August 7th, 2007 at 01:50 AM. Reason: grammar ( i know I cant spell)
    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

  11. #26
    Member Array skvinson's Avatar
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    A couple thoughts...

    First, the original post said, 'let's say someone is engaging you for a fight'. How exactly? Another poster told about a time someone said, 'I'm going to kill you and no one will find the bodies.' That is a blatant threat (of more than just minor injury), as opposed to someone who might be verbally assaulting you, but not making threats. Even then, if someone is angry and approaching, you certainly have the right to forcefully tell them to keep their distance. If they continue to advance, then they have escalated the situation, and your response will be more justified b/c of the perceived threat.

    Another thing that has not been mentioned, there are non-lethal means of self-defense available. After taking my CCW class and having a discussion on this issue, I bought a pepper spray keychain baton. That gives me an option between pulling (or even showing my gun) and being empty-handed - and possibly having to rely on superior hand-to-hand skills.

    Which BTW, brings up another issue. Someone mentioned being willing to take some blows if it came to a fight (without weapons). Who's to say if a person lands a good blow and gains the advantage that he will be content with just inflicting a minor injury. Not every fist fight ends with just cuts and bruises. Serious injury is not out of the question. I'm not saying this justifies shooting anyone who cocks his fist, I'm just saying there is more to consider...

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Cap'n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slash Dragoon View Post
    I think I messed up the wording on my first question.

    Well I remember the video someone posted (A Youtube), the main guy of the video said him and his wife were being followed by a group of men who said they were going to kill them, and they would never find the bodies. In the video he said he "showed his gun to them" and they backed off. Then the interviewer said "The mere sight of the gun saved you?"


    This is where my question arrised, when he "showed" them the weapon, did he pull it out and point, or lift up he shirt and show them he was armed?
    Quote Originally Posted by phaed View Post
    some folks will disagree, but in my opinion, your weapon isn't for show. you either keep it holstered, or you shoot the guy with it...absolutely no in between. as for when you are authorized deadly force, this differs from state to state. generally, you have to fear for life or limb. while possible, it's improbable that you could demonstrate that an unarmed man threatened you to that extent.
    +1 phaed

    This couples life has been verbally threatened by a "group" of men. This couple obviously felt fear for their life by bodily harm or death.

    In Tennessee, we have a no retreat law (can stand your ground) and with the above situation, allows the use of deadly force. This situation is one of the exact reasons why I carry a firearm. This type of situation happens far too often in Memphis due to our gang problems.

    I am not going to flash my gun and hope. I am not going to draw my gun and hope. I'm going to draw and fire until the threat is stopped.

    Time is not on your side when being approached by a group of BG's. Hesitation could prove deadly to you and your loved ones.

    Some folks may totally disagree and thats ok by me as each of us has to have his or her on mindset as to how they are going to react to a certain situation.

    Stay Safe!
    Last edited by Cap'n; August 7th, 2007 at 08:19 AM.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    Someone approaches you and wants to fight and you lift up your concealment and show your weapon to them? That would be a great way to escalate or get yourself hurt real fast. If I, or one of my family members or close friends had someone (who they were arguing with) "lift his shirt and show a weapon"..... I would be unhappy
    Escalate, shmescalate. If the other guy wants a fight there will be a fight. So the OP doesn't show his gun and gets in a fist fight instead, and while rolling around on the ground his opponent finds the gun, takes it and kills him.

    I used to believe there were only two options: Gun in holster or gun shooing badguy. Clearly this is not the case. A physical confrontation when you are carrying a gun is AUTOMATICALLY a deadly situation. You are fighting to retain control of the weapon, even if your enemy doesn't know you have one yet. If you lose, you lose control of the weapon and possibly your life.

    I think the OP is setting himself up for problems with the people he hangs out with and the reasons he wants to carry a gun.

    However, in the narrow issue of: Show the gun and possibly avoid the fight, or not show the gun and risk getting into a fist fight with a gun on your belt... well, it doesn't seem like there is an option to me.

    I'll never get into a fistfight while carrying a gun. If the other party wants a fight that bad it will be a gunfight. Against and unarmed assailant my defense might be: "I deployed my weapon and warned him off. HE continued to close, so I knew HE thought he could take me even with a gun in my hand. I had to assume he had a knife, or thought he could get the gun away from me. I couldn't risk that, so I fired."

    There comes a point where an unarmed assailant is a deadly threat to an armed defender. Exactly were that point lies depends on the specific situation, but it is always at lest just before the assailant gets within reach of the defender. You don't have to let someone kick your butt and take your gun just because they don't have one of their own. If you want for them to hit you or grab you it's too late.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  14. #29
    Member Array Slash Dragoon's Avatar
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    I just want to add that all my questions were hypothetical situations. I dont hang around any of these people.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slash Dragoon View Post
    I just want to add that all my questions were hypothetical situations. I dont hang around any of these people.
    You should have made that clear in your first post.


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

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    Terry

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