Enlightening & humbling experience at 21 feet
This is a discussion on Enlightening & humbling experience at 21 feet within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My son and I were out at our homemade range this past weekend, it consists of 5 stations, each station has 4 stationary targets that ...
August 6th, 2007 11:07 PM
Enlightening & humbling experience at 21 feet
My son and I were out at our homemade range this past weekend, it consists of 5 stations, each station has 4 stationary targets that can be switched around, plus one target that moves toward you, or moves vertical to you. Two shots per target X 25 targets = 50 rounds fired. It's a good challenge especially if you put in a "timing" factor.
While we were taking a break, we were talking about the 21 foot buffer zone, and we decided to challenge each other with it as a demonstration to ourselves. I'm writing this today for the forum, sort of as a different type of "range report" so you'd know what we experienced and felt. Some of you probably already know. Of course we are aware of the many courses, DVD's, and books that are available, and I have some LEO experience and training. My son lives in a big city and it too has a high crime rate, I wanted him to feel the pressure of what a BG attack from the 21 foot mark would be like.
Of course there is an infinite number of combination and scenarios on being attacked by a BG. We chose one simple scenario and repeated it several times. We were outside in a shady spot (important in Aug) on bare ground. One of us acted as the good guy that is ccw, the other played the part of the BG with a large knife. The good guy begins by standing, arms at his side, and facing a twelve o'clock postion, the BG is 21 feet away at the three o'clock position facing the good guy. Without notice or warning the BG, with the knife, will attack the GG with the ccw, the GG will attempt to defend himself.
Let me pause here to say we don't have a rubber knife, really didn't need one, we just used an appropriately sized stick that was laying on the ground. Not real expert-looking but it did a fine job. As I mentioned the GG was ccw, also we didn't have a fake gun, so we used a real SA 1911. We both clearly know about the gun safety rules and we discussed the issue of using a "real" gun that was empty. We both agreed that we were capable of making sure the pistol was empty and stayed empty. We also wanted the realism of using/handling the actual EDC weapon. We removed the mag, I checked the gun multiple times, he checked it multiple times, then we checked it together.......at that point we trusted each other to dry-fire it at the other one during our scenario attack. We also knew that our prior gun-handling safety practices were solid and this informal demo wouldn't cause us to begin horseplay or induce bad safety habits.
My son began as the GG ccw IWB, carrying Cond 3 (empty gun). I was the BG with the knife....uhh stick! He looked straight ahead, but was aware of my presence on his right, and he was positive of an impending attack by me, he just didn't know when, but he was alert, of course. Without warning I charged him with the stick several different times, enough times to become pretty winded. I think I "stabbed" him every time with the stick. While he stood his ground each time, there was a high failure rate to get his gun ready to fire in that short time frame. Once I recall he hung the gun on his shirt, and another time he short-racked it. No doubt under these conditions he was bound to get cut/killed in real life. The mental pressure was very evident, plus him standing his ground and readying his pistol took up too much valuable time. It was a very good lesson and experience for him during "good times".
Now it was my turn to be the GG ccw IWB, carrying cocked and locked and I would run laterally upon sensing his attack, though he didn't know I was going to run. So while I'm waiting he rushes me, and I run laterally buying myself some badly needed time The first time I drew on him, I had him lined up for a quick torso shot, but under the pressure I didn't unlock the safety and wasn't able to dry-fire at him. I felt the stick go right into my ego !!! Once again that mental pressure is very evident. No doubt, and this isn't rocket science, that running laterally with cocked and locked is advantageous over the other. I wanted him to experience the big difference of the two, actually experiencing this little exercise first-hand has a more profound affect than hearing/reading about it.
In conclusion I'm 55, he's 27, both of us are in good shape (especially him), and athletic enough to be competent in this demo, but it was interesting with the mental pressures how easy it was to "fail". The need is there for this type of practice enough times, for it to become instinctive. It's one thing to practice drawing from cc, but it changes with the pressure of someone bearing down rapidly on you (with a stick). My thoughts at the exact moment of his speed and pressure on me, was the urgency to point and shoot quickly, no real time for even bringing the pistol up high. Due to the rapidly closing distance I had time to clear my holster and shoot only. At the speed of the attack, the momentum of the BG, and even getting a shot off, I would have still stood a fair chance of getting killed or certainly cut during a real-life experience. Worst yet, in this role playing we knew we were going to be attacked, and we knew the direction and distance. Taking that same scenario to a real life experience, you wouldn't know anything positively, you function on suspicion and awareness, a lot of the other is uncertainty.
Certainly situational awareness is beneficial, and that coupled with at least a 21 foot buffer is beneficial, but the two together will surely not guarantee your survivability or non-injury. I make that statement not to begin a controversy or doubt any form of training, my point is that this type of practice is as important as firing practice, otherwise you might have only a false sense of security.
It's a sobering experience to realize that no matter what great gun, bullets, holster I have, or marksman I may be, none of it makes you Superman. This little exercise ran our awareness up and uncovered our vulnerabilities. All I can say in conclusion is be safe in practicing this and ultimately I believe you'll be safer on the street
Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.
August 7th, 2007 01:38 AM
ppk... Great Range Report!
The tactical team that I am a medic on does this drill on occasion. It's a real eye opener to say the least!
Thankfully, most the time, people are not caught by surprise by an unannounced "Bonzi Bayonet Charge" by some psycho.
Most often, especially for citizens during the course of their routine life are confronted by a knife in a "proposition" type crime.
A BG approaches you and offers you the "proposition" of, you to give him your money in exchange that he don't stick you with his knife, which he will then show you that he does in fact have a knife. (He is not expecting to have to stab you, because he sized you up as in the first place, and is expecting you to pee your pants and give him the cash without further incident). Thus, you are most often afforded with some options. Hopefully he engaged you from at least several feet away, allowing you immediately to add to that distance and draw your gun.
If he was real close, I would do my best to back/side step (increasing distance) as I drew my weapon. If he was within a few feet I would shoot immediately and aim COM.
If the BG started out at distance, 21' - 32' or so, I would still draw and challenge! Offering him an opportunity to leave before I actually took his life. In the mean time I would be moving, manuvering, communicating and utilizing tactics and option. But if he was within 10-20 feet, I would probably just shoot without warning.
Understand, these responses are not "set in stone" and these situations can be very fluid and dynamic. You have to decide what to do as it plays out before you as each situation is different.
Very good post! I believe everyone who carries a gun for defensive purposes should practice the "Tueller Drill" as some point and learn for themself what it's like, what your capabilites are and just how fast things can play out!
Thanks for starting this thread!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
August 7th, 2007 03:08 AM
The gun that you cannot gain access to in a super fast hurry does you exactly as much good as if you left it at home.
Fast access to the firearm trumps deep concealment.
Never secrete your firearm on your person deeper than is necessary to just keep it out of plain view.
You do not want the Coroner to be the person that gets to your gun before you do.
August 7th, 2007 04:39 AM
This exercise demonstrates why I carry a BUG in my Support Side Pocket and often have my Support Hand in my pocket.
August 7th, 2007 06:26 AM
This drill points out that ankle holsters as a primary gun should be a big no-no, as you are super venerable and not mobile.
Also, being a practiced martial artist in blade arts, we are taught to check the hand of a drawing weapon. (I.E. cross draw, shoulder holsters are bad ideas because it is very common to pin the hand drawing a weapon as it crosses the body).
Moving is the best idea when facing a blade, because it makes a harder target to hit, not to mention buying time to retaliate.
August 7th, 2007 07:52 AM
agreed...Rule #x...distance is your friend...
August 7th, 2007 09:07 AM
Great exercise and post! Bravo Zulu with your attention to safty. I definiatly took something positive from this post.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
August 7th, 2007 09:16 AM
Great report,thank you ppkheat!
August 7th, 2007 09:16 AM
Sorry,but airsoft is the way to go for your exercise.The fact of the matter is that you may have to shoot as you are being stabbed so the sooner you start ,the better chance you may have. Courage under fire. Chuck.
August 7th, 2007 10:51 AM
August 7th, 2007 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by SIGguy229
Distance begets time which is a buffer that supports survival.
Increased distance results in increased odds of surviving an attack.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
August 7th, 2007 12:07 PM
I picked this video demo up from a similar discussion on the knife forum on our site lateral move decoy money or keys if a hold up sceanrio and I am glad I carry a cocked xd the safety is my finger
August 7th, 2007 01:11 PM
great scenario, and video. Thanks to the OC for the thread. In principle, I have thought about the 1.5 seconds it takes for an agressor to cover that 21 ft., and in competition, my draw and fire is comfortably under that, however, and a BIG however, stress, clothing, room to move (limited in the video), have really made me rethink this. Gonna get my youngest son and an airsoft gun to work on this.
NRA, USPSA SS & Lim-10
Blessed are they who, faced with danger, think only of the front sight. J. Cooper
August 7th, 2007 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Rob72
By the way those drills generally only show you how fast you can get 1 shot off.
Try this form of the tueller drill.
Set up a target at some distance you facing the target. Have you son behind you facing back to back with you away from you, or you can also have him facing 90 degrees going sideways. Have him put his hand on your back or touching you somehow, his other hand holds two objects ( I use soda cans). When you feel his hand let go he starts running. As soon as he lets go start going for your gun, and fire two shots. When your son or who ever heres the first shot he drops the first can, on the second report he drops the second can or object. When your done. Holster and do an about face looking at how far his first object is from you, and then look at the second object how far it is away from the first. Pretty big eye openner.
“Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll
Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!
August 7th, 2007 01:35 PM
I know you proceeded with what you had available. I would recommend going a getting a cheap springer from wallyworld or ordering a nice blowback off the internet. You can dry fire and say I think it would have hit, but you get a good response if hit someone with a airsoft BB.
Originally Posted by Rob72
Plus I have to say that shooting your son with an airsoft give you a certain pleasure. My son and I have airsoft wars in our backyard.
But good that you are doing more than static training.
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--- Some of the friendliest people I have ever talked to are gun owners and shooters and according to the gun activists we are the mass murders and felons of the nation???
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