Fights: to draw or not to draw. - Page 2

Fights: to draw or not to draw.

This is a discussion on Fights: to draw or not to draw. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; for the same reasons that you learn how to carry and use a gun properly, you should learn hand to hand self defense. it's much ...

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Thread: Fights: to draw or not to draw.

  1. #16
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    for the same reasons that you learn how to carry and use a gun properly, you should learn hand to hand self defense. it's much more likely you'll need to defend yourself without a weapon than with sometime in your life.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill


  2. #17
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    These are the facts... You have a gun! The other guy doesn't! You know you have a stacked deck... the other guy doesn't know you have a gun until you kill him with it! He believed he was fighting another unarmed guy as well.

    The courts will hold you to a higher standard of care to avoid the situation, walk away and maybe even going to extrordanary means in not bringing your gun out even if the guy manages to hit you a few times.

    Again, are there circumstances where shooting an unarmed person justifiable? YES! But you are on very shakey ground. If you are going to claim "disparity of force" you should have some very compelling reasons that are clear and obvious to the court or grand jury. Disparity of Force is not just a loose term to throw out in court. You must be able to clearly show the factors that partain to that disparity in order to convince a jury to excuse you for taking the life on an unarmed person. There has to be some accountability for taking someones life.

    It is for that reason I strongly recommend people really understand the laws, how the court system works and know specific details of how lethal force is used and justified.
    This is excellent advice. In addition to what Bark'n wrote, it is also a very good idea to discuss the issues with a lawyer.

    The problem with this scenario it is not as simple as getting a few teeth knocked out and a black eye. A gun is already in the fight even if it is not presented. Some of us are not as fleet of foot or as strong as we once were. I have no problem believing that I would not prevail against a younger, stronger, bigger attacker. As soon as I am down and unconcious my gun is available to the assailant. That does not seem like a good outcome.

    So, it might be obvious to the individual that there is a disparity of force that could potentially become a lethal encounter. But that might not hold too much water in court. It remains the responsibility of the person with gun to avoid at all costs this confrontation. If this type of confrontation occurs then one must decide, and take responsibility for, whatever the ultimate choice becomes.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Run. Run now, so you won't be tired, when you need to run for real...Carrying a weapon is not an "end", it is simply a means. Personal defense should include personal fitness, particularly since our odds of being in a car accident are far higher than being in a gunfight. Higher muscle mass, good cardio-condition, and flexibility are all key components in healing, whether from surgery, an MVA, or a fight...
    Quote Originally Posted by jwsnydes View Post
    ...Most people that pick fights are idiots with little or no training...Training breeds respect and restraint.

    IMHO people should train (for however short) the basics of an unarmed fight, it will shed so much light on this, and give you so many more options.
    Agreed 100%

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #19
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    I believe that we should take a cue from law enforcement on this one, called the Force Continuum.

    1. Verbal Commands: Used on passively resistant subjects that refuse to comply with commands but are not physically resisting.

    2. Empty Hands: Used on subjects physically resisting and/or whose actions or behavior present a physical threat to others.

    3. Chemical Agents/Impact Devices: Used on subjects actively resisting or are combative, overtly attempting to overpower you or their actions are likely to cause minor or mild physical injury.

    4. Deadly Force: Used on subjects where the subjects actions are likely to cause death or serious injury.

    It's not comprehensive by any means, but it gives you an idea. The main principle behind a force continuum is that an officer must go at or slightly above the level of force that the subject is using or indicates that they will use given their actions or behavior (or past experiences with the subject). Disparity of force usually doesn't come into play with LEOs unless there are many people involved or the subject has a large, but not deadly weapon (in which case LEOs have the advantage of calling or backup while we don't).

    I would say when it comes to a fight attempt to disengage from it like many are required to in some states. Demonstrate (loudly, mind you with witnesses) that you are not interested in continuing the argument and that you are finished. At that point start thinking about your own force continuum. Make one up for yourself with the tools you have (e.g. flashlight, knife, gun, OC spray, whatever).

    Once you have clearly communicated that you no longer wish to pursue the argument, start at the bottom of your force continuum. Use their actions and behavior from that point (not what started the argument to begin with, start anew) and go up the continuum as needed. This way you can begin to build your case in your head on what justified your actions -- if it comes to it -- what led to the deadly force. Play some scenarios in your head with your new force continuum and judge that way, too.

    For example: You are at a party, you accidentally spill your drink on a guy when you bump into them. They are a little wasted and start an argument with you. You say that it was an accident and that you can help them clean it up, etc., etc. They say that's not good enough and that you did it on purpose because he say you "looking at his girl all night". You say that you don't want to fight, that it was an accident (again), you weren't looking at his girl. You apologize and begin to walk away.

    BREAK! -- You have just disengaged the fight.

    The guy begins to pursue you so you walk out of the party to the outside. You again tell him it was an accident and that you don't want to fight. He continues to swear at you and you ask him to leave you alone. Point 1: You verbally requested that he leaves you alone.

    Guy continues despite your request. You tell him to leave you alone. Point 2: You verbally commanded him that he leave you alone. He still continues and begins to get closer. You tell him to leave you alone again and he takes a drunkard swing at you which throws him slightly off balance. You tell him to not come closer or you will pepper spray him. Point 3: He has demonstrated resistance to your requests and commands and has also demonstrated a physical threat.

    He continues to attempt to take swings at you but not close enough to actually hit you and you spray him with OC spray and he falls clutching his eyes yelling. Point 4: He has resisted your verbal requests, verbal commands and a verbal challenge where he was issued the consequence to prevent any harm to yourself and despite such, continued knowing the consequence of his actions (e.g. the pepper spray).

    At this point you call 911 and advise them of the situation. I can guarantee you that if you articulate your decision-making process like I did above to a LEO in the aftermath that you will be let go and free to go home while he gets locked up for threats and intimidation, assault, etc. (even though he never hit you, that's "battery"). You will likely be detained momentarily and for awhile the EMS people and everyone will seem like they're playing the guy as the victim... However, YOU just created a ton of witnesses by your clearly (and loudly) communicated requests, commands and challenges to the guy and everyone but the guy's girlfriend and close friends will back you up simply because you made it easy (in their mind) to figure out who was the BG and who was the GG.

    Cheers.
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  5. #20
    Member Array crankshop1000's Avatar
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    First thing you need to realize BEFORE you get a CCW is that you need to adjust your lifestyle and attitude when you carry. No alcohol (maybe one beer with a meal) Leave your weapon at home if you intend to drink.Do not engage in the testosterone challanges. You need to become a negotiater on your own behalf and learn to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business when that needs to be done. If you have a problem with any of the above, think twice about getting a CCW, you might need to gain a bit of wisdon and go for it later. Chuck.

  6. #21
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    Yea enigmaone,we are in the same boat...to many heart attacks!And Heart surgerys.The trigger finger and the brain still work though...I try to use the later first though...

  7. #22
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    I hear ya Simon.
    quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scot Van View Post
    I think it is worthwhile to take the time to learn how to stop an attacker without the gun. While I'm not saying you have to spend two hours a day hitting the heavy bag or sign up for the Gracie program towards a BJJ black belt. What I do suggest is achieving some level of physical competence, if for nothing else than the resulting self-confidence and physical fitness.

    Some would suggest that this makes you more likely to engage in physical combat. I respectfully submit that the opposite is true, evidenced by the fact that physical prowess lends calm confidence and reduces agitation levels when one is confronted with a possible hand-to-hand. Basically, if you're not worried about getting your head torn off, you're more likely to mantain control of the situation and avert impending violence. [/I].

    Couldn't hurt to learn a little about the ol' rough and tumble, right?
    Very good suggestion. Also to add, knowing what it is like to get in a physical fight BEFORE having it happen on the street is priceless. With a little training , you will automatically react , rather than have to register , then respond to a attack.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ron8903's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankshop1000 View Post
    First thing you need to realize BEFORE you get a CCW is that you need to adjust your lifestyle and attitude when you carry. No alcohol (maybe one beer with a meal) Leave your weapon at home if you intend to drink.Do not engage in the testosterone challanges. You need to become a negotiater on your own behalf and learn to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business when that needs to be done. If you have a problem with any of the above, think twice about getting a CCW, you might need to gain a bit of wisdon and go for it later. Chuck.

    AMEN..............
    "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
    - Sir Winston Churchill

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    The problem is nobody knows how severe the attack is going to be prior to the engagement. Saying a black eye and busted jaw doesn't justify pulling your weapon. Maybe your crystal ball works better than mine, as I said you don't know if the guy is goin to stop once you are on the ground, maybe he won't be satisfied until your dead. Who knows, that is why you should try and avoid these confrontations at all costs and if the time does come where you must pull your weapon and God forbid use it, you better be able to prove that you were in fear of your life, period!!!
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

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