How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? - Page 2

How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

This is a discussion on How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by OldVet I was taking my evening walk like I do every night, and this old guy starts yelling at me to stay ...

View Poll Results: How close can suspicious guy get to you at night before you eventually escalate force

Voters
68. You may not vote on this poll
  • At 10ft I'd be warning, absent compliance, draw weapon

    40 58.82%
  • At 6ft I'd warn, and transition to brandishing at 4 ft.

    6 8.82%
  • I would not warn, but brandish at 4ft, shoot at 2ft

    1 1.47%
  • No warning, but quickly draw at 2ft, shoot on contact

    1 1.47%
  • Warn at 4ft, draw as he about touched me.

    3 4.41%
  • no warning, no draw until he touched me in threatening way or worse.

    17 25.00%
Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 109
Like Tree181Likes

Thread: How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

  1. #16
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    22,971
    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I was taking my evening walk like I do every night, and this old guy starts yelling at me to stay away and reaches under his shirt like he had a gun. I mean, really? I'm on a public street and this old guy acts like it's his personal property and no one else is allowed on it? Who is he to tell me where i can walk and cannot walk. I have my rights too, ya know? So I say the heck with him and keep walking.Next thing I know the old codger has his gun in my face and screaming orders at me.

    Yes, officer, I do want to press aggravated assault charges. If he's that afraid he should stay at the old folks home where he belongs.



    Just for thought for those who feel they own some kind of space in public...
    Maybe it was the fearfulness that your curmudgeonly countenance instills in the uninitiated...
    Rockymonster likes this.
    "Ideals are peaceful. History is violent."

    Don Collier, Fury

  2. #17
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    22,971
    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    All true. Of course Jeopardy is going to be a big question mark, especially if it got to the point that you have killed the guy before he got to you, Big Problem. On the other hand, get stabbed 11 times and you will more than likely die that night. Guy was lucky, but paid a huge price.

    I should have included backing up, moving, because that's surely the plan here. And it does help very much in establishing his intention to intersect with you, moving you closer to establishing jeopardy. In that case, he not merely walking towards his car right behind you. This was the case in the previous scenario the other day, backing up. But moving left or right backing up is better.
    The biggest problem I see with both your scenarios is they require the victim to be painted into the corner of helplessness as a condition of the situation, when the scenario requires that we detach from the reality in which we actually dwell, and our only options are the impossible ones which you offer up for consideration. Neither I, nor anyone else can draw on a charging attacker at four feet and shoot him at two. Move left, move right, back up, whatever, simply not happening.
    9MMare and Renaldow like this.
    "Ideals are peaceful. History is violent."

    Don Collier, Fury

  3. #18
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    207
    Quote Originally Posted by Spark456 View Post
    I really can't see me in that kind of scenario drunk walling home? But I think 10 feet more then enough. I think I would try to change direction just to see what he was going to do but after that its on.
    I like the reply. In retrospect, it's an easy call, but I wonder how many of us would be bold enough to do this in reality, not wanting to play the fool or hyped up gun nut.

    I put both scenarios up to get people to think about the less than clear cut situation that really happen all the time across the county (not to each of us daily, but to many, many folks in aggregate.) Not much time to make the call.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    DefensiveCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #19
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    207
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    The video is actually a distraction from the questions in your poll, since the victim had absolutely no awareness of the impending attack until it was underway. The victim had no opportunity to warn, draw, brandish or otherwise react. Additionally, the options you offered as responses are without possibility in reality. You will scarcely get the "P" on "STOP" for an attacking assailant ten feet away, let alone draw and fire from anything less than a hand-on-gun draw.
    All possibly true, but question is, what would you do given the assumptions. This scenario plays out regularly in muggings. What's the plan? Wait for the knife, or intervene ahead of that time, and if so when and how? You have maybe a second to decide, assuming you are facing him and aware he is headed straight at you.

  6. #20
    Member Array xXxHeavy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    423
    "Jack The Ripper"...........................obviously.

    The pub go'er had no clue and probably a bit intoxicated.....the assailant is a deranged man, attack from behind and doesn't look like a robbery.
    Maybe retribution........dunno.

  7. #21
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    207
    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    First, I'd have turned to address the attacker before he reached me [ before he got into my inner circle ].
    Second, he'd have seen my hand up, "stop" if he tried to enter the inner circle.
    Third, anything but immediately backing up means it's game on. The intent is clear at that point, it's not an innocent mistake he ran up on you. He's got to get inside the upraised arm/hand at that point.
    Fourth, if he's decided it's game on, he's got more problems than he realizes. I may die, but not before he's made cold forever.
    Agree. And I realize you could personally take him out hand to hand, so it would most likely work for you easily. When to pull a gun becomes a difficult question for our less warrior like victim. I do think your inner circle, whatever that is, is the limit before you need to enforce your zone of safety. Could be challenge when the police arrive, but good chance the guy has a weapon on him and a long rap sheet. Meanwhile, you're wondering if you aren't too paranoid. Fine line.

    Still not a social norm to get in your safe zone at night on a lonely street, hoody up or not.

  8. #22
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    207
    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    I would suggest watching more of these ASP videos since you seem to have so many scenarios in mind. Second get some training on how to handle everyday contacts. I know there is at least one class out there(maybe Craig Douglas?) . Bottom line any encounter you post here will most likely not be play by play of what you have asked here. Learn from someone who knows rather than rely on typed responses that may or may not be solid.
    Finally while asking here may get you some ideas, physically practicing , with verbal judo and watching for physical clues what the subject is possibly doing is much better training.
    I've actually watched all the ASP videos and many more. All good advice. As I said in the other, now closed thread, if we are being judged by a reasonable man doctrine, then surely we as reasonable men can analyze these cases and see what is lawful, moral, advisable, etc. I will say, if even a segment of gun owners prefer to keep their gun holstered until the knife comes out, then surely nearly everyone would. A good portion, perhaps the majority here, are alpha males here. It surprised me in the other thread that these alpha males were suggesting they wouldn't intervene until a threat was verbalized or a weapon came out essentially. In other words, the question of distance was not a limit for the decision to intervene. If distance is not a major criteria, you may be fighting a losing, fatal, battle, albeit wonderfully lawful from your end.

    Legal jeopardy is your major worry if brandishing, and then possibly shooting.
    Your death is your major worry if not brandishing and possibly shooting, given the assumptions.

  9. #23
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    207
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Something tells me this was a vindictive attack, with the sole purpose of killing him.
    The victim should have probably expected this, and simply failed all around.

    I think the bigger lesson here is if you piss people off, you better have your head on a swivel.
    Assume all that is true, and assume for your purpose (not to change the whole thread), the guy was fearful of vindictive attack, did have his head on a swivel, did see the guy coming at 20 feet, and then needed a plan to react given the assumptions. What's the plan? In some ways, it may be easier to intervene if you have good reason to feel in jeopardy, legally speaking, I suppose.

  10. #24
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    207
    Right, and just to take it one step further, would you have your daughters intervene earlier than the attack if they were armed with a gun? Not an easy question, but definitely a difficult situation to be in, requiring a decision within a second or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    The primary lesson to take away from this is something I used to constantly drill into my daughters: Always be aware of your surroundings. I know they got tired of hearing this when they were teenagers, but it is one of life's most important universal truths. The victim in the video failed to heed this simple lesson and nearly paid for his ignorance with his life. And when we throw in the fact that so many people have been sensitized into believing that profiling is morally and legally wrong, all we are doing is creating more victims for the predators.

    When I see people heading to their cars in shopping center parking lots oblivious to what's taking place around them, their noses buried in their "smart" (stupid) phones, I just cannot help but think that there goes a victim just ripe for the taking. Add to this that the majority of those types are probably not armed and you just have more fodder for prowling horde.

    God gave us eyes and ears and a magnificent brain. Not using these in our normal everyday affairs is really sad. The victim in attack in the video was over in less than ten seconds. Ten seconds he could have gone from an unharmed man to a bloodied corpse. So please do use those eyes and those ears, and that golden gift of a brain to profile in the extreme that you might arrive home safely every time you venture out.

  11. #25
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    207
    Food for thought. Definitely worth considering long before you find yourself in these exact circumstances, that go down daily across the country. So how did you answer the poll, or what was your alternative plan of action, given the assumptions? You have a ~second to decide in real life.


    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I was taking my evening walk like I do every night, and this old guy starts yelling at me to stay away and reaches under his shirt like he had a gun. I mean, really? I'm on a public street and this old guy acts like it's his personal property and no one else is allowed on it? Who is he to tell me where i can walk and cannot walk. I have my rights too, ya know? So I say the heck with him and keep walking.Next thing I know the old codger has his gun in my face and screaming orders at me.

    Yes, officer, I do want to press aggravated assault charges. If he's that afraid he should stay at the old folks home where he belongs.



    Just for thought for those who feel they own some kind of space in public...

  12. #26
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    207
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    The biggest problem I see with both your scenarios is they require the victim to be painted into the corner of helplessness as a condition of the situation, when the scenario requires that we detach from the reality in which we actually dwell, and our only options are the impossible ones which you offer up for consideration. Neither I, nor anyone else can draw on a charging attacker at four feet and shoot him at two. Move left, move right, back up, whatever, simply not happening.
    May very well seem like impossible options, particularly at the moment it is happening, but you nonetheless need to respond. Non response is akin to be facing the other direction, like the guy in the video. You seem to imply that this scenario is a one in a trillion event. This stuff happens all the time, and a huge group of people are rather defenseless absent a gun on their hip. Seems like you are picking the fifth or sixth option from the poll and taking your chances with hand to hand and trying to draw once the attack is underway. No shame in that. Certainly more safe from a legal perspective. In this case would you be stabbed more frequently than the other choices? Probably, but not knowing the outcome ahead of time, hard decisions to make. Yours may be the most honest answer, if not the safest answer.

  13. #27
    Sponsor
    Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    13,040
    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Agree. And I realize you could personally take him out hand to hand, so it would most likely work for you easily. When to pull a gun becomes a difficult question for our less warrior like victim. I do think your inner circle, whatever that is, is the limit before you need to enforce your zone of safety. Could be challenge when the police arrive, but good chance the guy has a weapon on him and a long rap sheet. Meanwhile, you're wondering if you aren't too paranoid. Fine line.

    Still not a social norm to get in your safe zone at night on a lonely street, hoody up or not.
    Hard to dispute in court one's "personal space" and given the time and place, the totality of circumstances can't be defended. Outside ones personal space, drawing or threatening another without the 3 prongs of deadly force being met [ and "intent" will be hard to prove if they are outside your personal space and have not verbalized their intentions or shown a weapon ] will be the challenge for the defender.

    IMO, of course,
    TeflonDon likes this.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    https://www.youtube.com/user/azqkr

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  14. #28
    Senior Member
    Array rubberfrog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,123
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I would have just turned and, taking careful aim when he was still at least 15 yards or so behind me, shot him in the face until he hit the ground, and then, caved in his face by stomping in with the heel of my shoe until he was unrecognizable.

    I would have then gone thru his wallet, and saw where he lived, so I could wipe out any existing matter from the same gene pool.
    I'd do the same thing, except I might stop for a pedicure and some chicken wings on the way to his families house.

  15. #29
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    207
    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Hard to dispute in court one's "personal space" and given the time and place, the totality of circumstances can't be defended. Outside ones personal space, drawing or threatening another without the 3 prongs of deadly force being met [ and "intent" will be hard to prove if they are outside your personal space and have not verbalized their intentions or shown a weapon ] will be the challenge for the defender.

    IMO, of course,
    agree 100% Just a question now of how far that "personal space" extends. I suspect it varies with time of day and totality of circumstance (rapidly approaching, menacing?, shadows, hostile body language, other reasonable explanations for behavior at the time? etc.), but how far out would it extend given the video's circumstance? Would be interested to know each person's opinion, hence the poll.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array MB53's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Tx
    Posts
    677
    although the options are based solely on suspicion and not altercation, this poll is unrealistic in that it doesn't offer a choice of de-escalation. And if suspicion were the rule by which a drawn weapon is allowed by law, society would be rampant with brandished firearms.

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •