How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? - Page 3

How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

This is a discussion on How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MB53 although the options are based solely on suspicion and not altercation, this poll is unrealistic in that it doesn't offer a ...

View Poll Results: How close can suspicious guy get to you at night before you eventually escalate force

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  • At 10ft I'd be warning, absent compliance, draw weapon

    40 58.82%
  • At 6ft I'd warn, and transition to brandishing at 4 ft.

    6 8.82%
  • I would not warn, but brandish at 4ft, shoot at 2ft

    1 1.47%
  • No warning, but quickly draw at 2ft, shoot on contact

    1 1.47%
  • Warn at 4ft, draw as he about touched me.

    3 4.41%
  • no warning, no draw until he touched me in threatening way or worse.

    17 25.00%
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Thread: How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MB53 View Post
    although the options are based solely on suspicion and not altercation, this poll is unrealistic in that it doesn't offer a choice of de-escalation. And if suspicion were the rule by which a drawn weapon is allowed by law, society would be rampant with brandished firearms.
    Exactly....so many things hinge on how I perceive the 'suspicious' person and my surroundings. If he or she doesnt have a firearm out, I'm not standing around...if no firearm is drawn, why not get the heck out of Dodge? Start moving. Start addressing them. Putting something between us. Getting the attention of bystanders. Etc etc etc.

    If they have a gun trained on me, I'm sure not drawing mine, a little late for that. And most things are too late, gun or not, if a motivated attacker gets within 4 or 2 feet of me (not being trained in CQB or martials arts). I got move and scream left if my firearm isnt out.

  2. #32
    Member Array jaybee's Avatar
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    I have been approached outside my work at 4am in the dark. This is why I carry a 500 lumen flashlight. It gives you a break in the action that stops them in their tracks and gives you the opportunity to ask them what they want without escalating the situation to weapons drawn if there need not be. (the guy that approached me turned out to be homeless and wanted a buck) I blinded him from 12ft away until I could assess that he was not a real threat. Blinds them, gives you a better visual assessment, gives you much more time to draw weapon if needed.
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  3. #33
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxHeavy View Post
    "Jack The Ripper"...........................obviously.

    The pub go'er had no clue and probably a bit intoxicated.....the assailant is a deranged man, attack from behind and doesn't look like a robbery.
    Maybe retribution........dunno.
    Right. Could be ISIS attack just as well. ISIS is recommending knife attacks.

    Still requires a plan of action.

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  5. #34
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MB53 View Post
    although the options are based solely on suspicion and not altercation, this poll is unrealistic in that it doesn't offer a choice of de-escalation. And if suspicion were the rule by which a drawn weapon is allowed by law, society would be rampant with brandished firearms.
    Right, so you have 10 seconds to de-escalate before a knife is plunged into you. Possibly you give a warning after the failed de-escalation attempt, and possibly you draw after the serious warning. But again, you have only ten seconds in total, and the guy seems intent on doing you harm. Is de-escalation going to be the centerpiece of your defense that night? Is de-escalation going to have an effect on a mugger or quasi assassin?

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    I voted 10 feet Id start warning the guy but it would be more like 2 car lengths. Where I live its not common to get right up on people. We have space to spread out. At two car lengths it will be fairly evident if he is focused on me or the car behind me [ I'm still moving]. At two car lengths I will have already put my hand in my pocket that holds my edc because things are going to happen fast now! I'm going to turn to face him. If its just a guy passing me on the street, most will get the idea and veer off. If he doesn't I'm in a good position to draw as I confront him. DR

  7. #36
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybee View Post
    I have been approached outside my work at 4am in the dark. This is why I carry a 500 lumen flashlight. It gives you a break in the action that stops them in their tracks and gives you the opportunity to ask them what they want without escalating the situation to weapons drawn if there need not be. (the guy that approached me turned out to be homeless and wanted a buck) I blinded him from 12ft away until I could assess that he was not a real threat. Blinds them, gives you a better visual assessment, gives you much more time to draw weapon if needed.
    Good thought. I carry one too. What if it is ISIS in London (not that you can carry in London LOL, let's assume otherwise), lone knife attack, and flashlight means nothing to them? Are you left to escalate at the very last second? Not saying I wouldn't do what you are suggesting, but food for thought. When do you draw when the soft approach seems fruitless, distance and time wise?

  8. #37
    Member Array jaybee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Good thought. I carry one too. What if it is ISIS in London, lone knife attack, and flashlight means nothing to them? Are you left to escalate at the very last second? Not saying I wouldn't do what you are suggesting, but food for thought. When do you draw when the soft approach seems fruitless, distance and time wise?
    It effectively gives you more than the "last second" because you've taken their sight. Unless they are wearing some auto-darkening glasses or something. I keep my left hand on the flashlight and my right on my EDC in my pocket most the time. I think you can have your weapon drawn pretty easily by the time you have determined they are an actual threat and they have managed to somehow close the distance while blinded.

  9. #38
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybee View Post
    It effectively gives you more than the "last second" because you've taken their sight. Unless they are wearing some auto-darkening glasses or something.
    Yeah, I think it's a great part of an overall plan.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    agree 100% Just a question now of how far that "personal space" extends. I suspect it varies with time of day and totality of circumstance (rapidly approaching, menacing?, shadows, hostile body language, other reasonable explanations for behavior at the time? etc.), but how far out would it extend given the video's circumstance? Would be interested to know each person's opinion, hence the poll.
    Arms reach away. Inside that is the inner circle for me, and it doesn't depend on time of day or location. It's called personal space, once it's invaded, once the arm up doesn't get them to stop their approach further, game on. Easily articulated in courts.

    Personal Distance ? Zones

    Notice the Personal Distance Zone listed at 2-5 feet. My outstretched palm to shoulder measures right at 24-25 inches, that 2 foot range. [ This space is reserved for friends and family — people you know and trust. It's an easy and relaxed space for talking, shaking hands, gesturing and making faces. ]

    Notice the Intimate Distance Zone which is 0-2 feet. That's the inner circle that would not allowed to be breached at any cost unless one knows the person and feels comfortable enough to allow it. [ Obviously it's the space reserved only for the most trusted and loved in our social circles: partners and siblings. It doesn't mean that we're offended by a friend's hug or anything, only it's going to be brief and less intimate. [ This space (especially the 15 cm (1/2 foot) zone bubble) is like a private bubble of breathing space, almost as an extension of our body. When someone is getting that close, our body and mind automatically reacts — it's being put on flight or fight mode. If it's someone acceptable in our most inner circle — we relax and enjoy the intimacy, but if the presence is unwelcome, we will shut down and try to retain somehow our comfort zone. ]
    The mind is the limiting factor

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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Good thought. I carry one too. What if it is ISIS in London, lone knife attack, and flashlight means nothing to them? Are you left to escalate at the very last second? Not saying I wouldn't do what you are suggesting, but food for thought. When do you draw when the soft approach seems fruitless, distance and time wise?
    When a reasonable person or peer would believe the 3 required elements of a deadly force response were met.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Right, and just to take it one step further, would you have your daughters intervene earlier than the attack if they were armed with a gun? Not an easy question, but definitely a difficult situation to be in, requiring a decision within a second or two.
    Of course you do raise a very salient point with this and your initial post opening this thread. In my state, it is the perception of the victim that is key. Did one fear that they were in imminent danger of serious bodily harm.

    "If you have a reasonably held good faith belief, based on objective fact, that you or another innocent person is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury, then you are authorized to use such force as is reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to stop the threat."

    People have mentioned that changing the side of the street on which they are walking, turning onto another street, crossing over then taking a 180, etc. These are all good ploys, or tests, to use to see if the threat is genuine... providing one has the time and distance in their favor. But if someone is closing on you directly and quickly and this satisfies the previous paragraph, then I suspect most would assume an imminent threat does exist and needs to be dealt with accordingly.

    This is a good thread because it is forcing people to think, or rethink, situations like this and what they would do in their state where they are also concerned about the legal aspects of of their actions in that state. It's interesting to me to read what others have added to the discussion on the thread. In a video training course I took last year, the concept of playing "what if" games was stressed as a prime method of ingraining thought processes into ones basic instinct. This is something I have been doing for over 50 years in driving motor vehicles as well as in self defense scenarios. Very valuable training and has already saved my life and my passengers' lives a number of times on the highway.
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    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    When a reasonable person or peer would believe the 3 required elements of a deadly force response were met.
    Right, always.

  14. #43
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    I'd say you've described the very minimum acceptable distance. If everyone were to consider it, this is the minimum regardless the time of day (but still allowing for context). Because you are very confident in your abilities, this is may be all you need. I'm guessing in a less confident person, the space may extend a little further simply because they are more at risk than you are at those extended distances. What those distances are, I can't say, and they would have to be reviewed more carefully in the aftermath than your limits would have to be. One is simply at more risk the older you get, and proximity is a big determinant of risk, depending on the context.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    Of course you do raise a very salient point with this and your initial post opening this thread. In my state, it is the perception of the victim that is key. Did one fear that they were in imminent danger of serious bodily harm.

    "If you have a reasonably held good faith belief, based on objective fact, that you or another innocent person is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury, then you are authorized to use such force as is reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to stop the threat."

    People have mentioned that changing the side of the street on which they are walking, turning onto another street, crossing over then taking a 180, etc. These are all good ploys, or tests, to use to see if the threat is genuine... providing one has the time and distance in their favor. But if someone is closing on you directly and quickly and this satisfies the previous paragraph, then I suspect most would assume an imminent threat does exist and needs to be dealt with accordingly.
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  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    I'd say you've described the very minimum acceptable distance. If everyone were to consider it, this is the minimum regardless the time of day. Because you are very confident in your abilities, this is maybe all you need. I'm guessing in a less confident person, the space may extend a little further simply because they are more at risk than you are at those extended distances. What those distances are, I can't say, and they would have to be reviewed more carefully in the aftermath than your limits would have to be. One is simply at more risk the older you get, and proximity is a big determinant of risk, depending on the context.
    While I didn't speak to specific distances, I adhere to two basic factors in this area. Is or are the perp or perps capable of reaching me within a period of time that would preclude my ability to get my sidearm out and into play? What am I carrying if something like this were to occur? Braking this down, I can draw from concealment and get two shots on target in under two seconds. But that is under more ideal conditions (T-shirt or golf shirt and no jacket). Enter the colder weather where a jacket is worn and that time increases a little. If I am facing just one person and I can hit him with 50% of my shots, there is still no guarantee that he is going to go down before he reaches me. If there are multiple attackers, my odds just went down exponentially.

    So distance, caliber, load, number of rounds in gun, number of attackers, lighting conditions, drugs in their system(s), their intent... all of this and more play a very significant roll in whether or not one will come out unscathed. Your best bet is the three stupids: don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things.

    But then, this thread is not about choosing not to go somewhere because it might be ill advised. It's about what would someone do when caught off guard by a carjacker. If at all possible, and safe, escape is your best friend, if this option presents itself. I am not in the same boat as those who are younger on this site. I'll turn 71 this month and though I don't at all look it and I am in great physical shape, I'm not so stupid to believe that I am an equal match for a much younger male who is intent on doing me harm. I can no longer run or fight was I was once capable of doing due to both knees being replaced (one total and one partial) and a decompression/fusion surgery on my lower spine (L4/L5). So I am at a greater disadvantage and must take into consideration more factors than perhaps many of you people need worry about.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    I'd say you've described the very minimum acceptable distance. If everyone were to consider it, this is the minimum regardless the time of day (but still allowing for context). Because you are very confident in your abilities, this is may be all you need. I'm guessing in a less confident person, the space may extend a little further simply because they are more at risk than you are at those extended distances. What those distances are, I can't say, and they would have to be reviewed more carefully in the aftermath than your limits would have to be. One is simply at more risk the older you get, and proximity is a big determinant of risk, depending on the context.
    Hearing him [ in that vid ] starting to close, from 10 or further out, that's when you turn to face the person, put the hand up and command them to stay away. If they have no ill intent, they'll pull up recognizing you aren't comfortable with their presence being any closer. Sometimes they'll apologize for startling you, but not always. If they keep on trucking, you've only got that distance to decide, based on the totality of circumstances, whether threatening deadly force is necessary to prevent grave bodily harm or death is the right play.

    This scenario brings to light the fact it's prudent to have SOME stand off h2h skills. Barring having none, or not confident to attempt to use h2h skills after the potential gets within your personal space and the upraised arm/hand/palm with repeated commands to back off/keep ones distance or not being able to respond physically due to disabilities etc, one make a judgement call. That may work out and it may not, just like the h2h might work out and it might not.

    Keep in mind, that if they are within 21 feet, most will close before an average ccwer can draw and fire. Even with the speed I possess on the draw and fire from concealed, if they are challenged at 10 feet and make their move, the gun on your waist isn't likely to be presented in time, thus it's still likely going to be h2h initially. One would be well advised, staring at a potential perp at 10 feet to not attempt to draw their firearm. If the perp recognizes it for what it is and wants to, he can close and be damaging you long before you ever clear leather.

    Now you're attempting to draw, and fend off a physical attack, effectively taking 50% of your potential defense away from an immediate response. Being guncentric at the wrong time can lead to more injury, not less.
    dangerranger likes this.
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