How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? - Page 4

How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

This is a discussion on How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is nothing more than a situational awareness issue. The victim had no idea the man was coming up behind him, and there was no ...

View Poll Results: How close can suspicious guy get to you at night before you eventually escalate force

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  • At 10ft I'd be warning, absent compliance, draw weapon

    40 58.82%
  • At 6ft I'd warn, and transition to brandishing at 4 ft.

    6 8.82%
  • I would not warn, but brandish at 4ft, shoot at 2ft

    1 1.47%
  • No warning, but quickly draw at 2ft, shoot on contact

    1 1.47%
  • Warn at 4ft, draw as he about touched me.

    3 4.41%
  • no warning, no draw until he touched me in threatening way or worse.

    17 25.00%
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Thread: How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    This is nothing more than a situational awareness issue.

    The victim had no idea the man was coming up behind him, and there was no chance of doing anything here, not for him or anyone who might have been carrying a weapon.

    So to fit the scenario, the victim would have to have seen the man following him.

    In that case, if he was suspicious, he should have turned towards the attacker, and observed his actions.

    At some point, he should have ask the guy to hold up, and if he didn't, prepare for an altercation.

    This is the perfect scenario where a j frame revolver in the coat pocket would be the perfect answer.....if he had seen the attacker.
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  2. #47
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    This is the perfect scenario where a j frame revolver in the coat pocket would be the perfect answer.....if he had seen the attacker.
    agree 100%
    kinda shopping for one now.

  3. #48
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Keep in mind, that if they are within 21 feet, most will close before an average ccwer can draw and fire. Even with the speed I possess on the draw and fire from concealed, if they are challenged at 10 feet and make their move, the gun on your waist isn't likely to be presented in time, thus it's still likely going to be h2h initially. One would be well advised, staring at a potential perp at 10 feet to not attempt to draw their firearm. If the perp recognizes it for what it is and wants to, he can close and be damaging you long before you ever clear leather.
    That may be true; I don't know for sure. The likelihood of it being true of course rises exponentially the faster they approach, since they can close 21 feet in 1.5 seconds when running. At the pace the guy in the video is coming, it might be more questionable, and I have read and seen where people do draw and brandish in time. In the poll, I'm assuming he saw the guy at 20 feet and decided to draw at 10 feet for the first option.

    For people who are aghast at that notion (of brandishing before they reach you), keep in mind that while you are initially escalating the situation, more than likely you will be quickly de-escalating the situation as the perp sees the gun and suddenly reverses course and seeks out a weaker victim. And that happens much more than not assuming there is some standoff distance with the brandishing. Happens over and over again in videos I've seen.

    The other option, that was portrayed by the firearms instructor in the video in the other thread (see: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=63e_1464729274 ), is to not quite brandish to the point of aiming it at the guy. In other words pull the gun out earlier than you would intend to aim it at the guy, partly to be ready faster, and partly, if you let the guy see it, to warn him at one level higher than simple verbal warnings. You'd keep the gun pointed towards the ground. One of the things that makes that video so interesting is that the brandishing did not work that time. The firearms instructor was found to be justified in his use of force, and it may partly be due to his gradual increase in warnings to include different levels of deadly force warnings. That guy had plenty, plenty of warning (though I don't think he deserved to die that day).

    Not sure if this is pointing to the ground with your gun is taught anywhere, but that firearms instructor sure felt it was the best method in his circumstance. Must be taught somewhere.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array MB53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Right, so you have 10 seconds to de-escalate before a knife is plunged into you. Possibly you give a warning after the failed de-escalation attempt, and possibly you draw after the serious warning. But again, you have only ten seconds in total, and the guy seems intent on doing you harm. Is de-escalation going to be the centerpiece of your defense that night? Is de-escalation going to have an effect on a mugger or quasi assassin?
    right, so I went back and watched the video..which I had not done at first. De escalation, in this situation, obviously wasn't an option. The whole situational awareness issue comes up with huge importance here. The victim was clueless to his surroundings.
    Hard to say if he could have avoided the attack at all.
    So the question that should be addressed here is more of 'how would you handle someone coming from behind, by surprise, and attacking you with a knife?' This is a hard one. Really hard.
    I have an old friend who experienced almost this exact same attack scenario inside his small gun shop in broad daylight.
    He emptied his .380 Walther PP into the perp, who had thrown him to the floor, while suffering 5 stab wounds with a 9" blade. Unfortunately, even though a trained, combat experienced Marine, he wasn't able to self defend until the perp was already on him and had already inflicted a couple of wounds from behind. Yet, once he was face to face, still blocking the knife, he used his
    weapon and survived. The lesson he learned that day was "always have a round in the chamber".

    As far as seeing a knife wielding perp coming towards in the dark of night, with intent to do bodily harm or kill?
    If I'm at the ready he's not going to make it out alive. I'd draw at the 10ft mark or sooner.

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MB53 View Post
    right, so I went back and watched the video..which I had not done at first. De escalation, in this situation, obviously wasn't an option. The whole situational awareness issue comes up with huge importance here. The victim was clueless to his surroundings.
    Hard to say if he could have avoided the attack at all.
    So the question that should be addressed here is more of 'how would you handle someone coming from behind, by surprise, and attacking you with a knife?' This is a hard one. Really hard.
    I have an old friend who experienced almost this exact same attack scenario inside his small gun shop in broad daylight.
    He emptied his .380 Walther PP into the perp, who had thrown him to the floor, while suffering 5 stab wounds with a 9" blade. Unfortunately, even though a trained, combat experienced Marine, he wasn't able to self defend until the perp was already on him and had already inflicted a couple of wounds from behind. Yet, once he was face to face, still blocking the knife, he used his
    weapon and survived. The lesson he learned that day was "always have a round in the chamber".

    As far as seeing a knife wielding perp coming towards in the dark of night, with intent to do bodily harm or kill?
    If I'm at the ready he's not going to make it out alive. I'd draw at the 10ft mark or sooner.
    This is a given and should never be question about it's safety and wisdom, though not infrequently we see threads which do question the wisdom of carrying in full battery. I tend to think that people who practice this have never really given any serious thought to what takes place in an attack. Maybe they're new to all of this, maybe they honestly believe they will never be attacked because they live in a "safe" area. Or maybe they really are clueless and just don't consider everything involved in an extreme encounter.

    What they don't seem to understand is the fact that bad people don't think the same way as good people. They have no compunction about doing what needs to be done to get them what they're after. The really bad ones include injury or death in their actions against their victims. For good people to survive bad encounters, they must begin to think like bad people. IN other words, they have to be ready and capable to inflict serious injury or death upon their assailants without remorse or compassion. Hesitation and compassion kills. When the time comes to wallow in the mud with the beast just make sure you're on top.
    MB53 and jttar like this.
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  6. #51
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    As far as the "21 foot rule" goes I short circuit the rule by subtly drawing and keeping the gun down by my side away from the potential threat. That way I can go Bang in half a second. When I hear footsteps behind me in a parking lot or wherever I step aside and glance behind me. Usually - virtually always, it is no threat and I keep on going. If it looks at all threatening I step to the side and let them pass. With gun hidden behind my leg. If they were to follow I'd immediately ask what they wanted. Body language would tell me if they were a threat - usually. Arm would be out and warning given and gun in the other hand would be pointed at them if they continued. I'd apologize as they backed away or shoot if they continued.

    I couldn't find that option so I didn't vote.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Good thought. I carry one too. What if it is ISIS in London (not that you can carry in London LOL, let's assume otherwise), lone knife attack, and flashlight means nothing to them? Are you left to escalate at the very last second? Not saying I wouldn't do what you are suggesting, but food for thought. When do you draw when the soft approach seems fruitless, distance and time wise?
    When walking at night, I always have my flashlight in hand. 320 lumens in the eyes don't care that it means nothing to them.Someone approaching me is going to get it in the eyes as soon as I notice them noticing me, regardless of distance. I know it works to solve lots of potential problems, because it has in the past for me. Like it or not, they aren't going to be seeing anything for a couple seconds. I don't really have to draw, since I am gun in hand with my other hand while walking at night. In cold weather, it is on the j-frame in my coat pocket. In warm weather, the .380 in my pants pocket. I will quite possibly get knifed during such an attack, but the attacker is quite likely going to get shot.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Food for thought. Definitely worth considering long before you find yourself in these exact circumstances, that go down daily across the country. So how did you answer the poll, or what was your alternative plan of action, given the assumptions? You have a ~second to decide in real life.
    What you say is true--one may have mere seconds to decide a course of action, a decision that may put one in prison for life if wrong.

    Violence by any means at any level is a last resort for me. I've been in circumstances where violence was a first resort, and the outcome was no winner for either party. I have been approached on the street and a prompt but courteous remark by me has defused every situation without any escalation. No doubt it would not work on someone with intent to commit violence, but in most cases neither would "commands" or threats.

    So none of your poll responses apply for me. And if you wish for honest responses to your situation, stop changing it with every other reply and stop the "assume."
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon at large.
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  9. #54
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    As far as seeing a knife wielding perp coming towards in the dark of night, with intent to do bodily harm or kill?

    In this video, no knife was visible if he'd turned around. Intent would be very hard to prove, without more input from the perp other than just walking toward you.

    If I'm at the ready he's not going to make it out alive. I'd draw at the 10ft mark or sooner.

    Under what tenet of law could you draw on a man who is walking toward you, showing no weapon nor making any threats? One can't use the hindsight of watching this video to formulate a response to draw, one must be able to articulate means, motive and opportunity. Barring any verbal exchange, no weapon displayed, where's the "intent/motive" displayed to do great bodily harm or death to another?
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  10. #55
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    What you say is true--one may have mere seconds to decide a course of action, a decision that may put one in prison for life if wrong.

    Violence by any means at any level is a last resort for me. I've been in circumstances where violence was a first resort, and the outcome was no winner for either party. I have been approached on the street and a prompt but courteous remark by me has defused every situation without any escalation. No doubt it would not work on someone with intent to commit violence, but in most cases neither would "commands" or threats.

    So none of your poll responses apply for me. And if you wish for honest responses to your situation, stop changing it with every other reply and stop the "assume."
    I'm coming to the conclusion you could wear them down, one way or another.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    I'm coming to the conclusion you could wear them down, one way or another.
    Vegas would give very good odds on that.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon at large.
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  12. #57
    VIP Member Array TeflonDon's Avatar
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    A man is walking towards you at night. IYHO, you prejudge him and come to your own opinion based on appearance that he "looks" suspicious and dangerous though he has not threatened you in any way and isn't holding any weapons. You tell this man, while on a public street where everyone has a right to walk where they please, to back away from you. He ignores you and keeps walking towards you (on a public street). So, you take your gun out and point it at him and/or kill him for not obeying your orders and getting closer to you than you personally thought he should.

    The man never threatened you verbally or physically. He didn't have a weapon that you could see. He broke no laws (not illegal to walk passed or close to another person on a public street). He did nothing other than to look a certain way that made you feel that he might be a threat, and to not obey the orders of someone who has no authority.

    Is this the scenario that is okay to shoot or point a firearm at someone? What would be your defense in court? "No upur honor, he wasn't armed. He didn't have a weapon. He didn't verbally threaten me. I killed him because he invaded my person space, he didn't follow my orders to to get close to me, and he invaded my personal space." Would that be a good defense?
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  13. #58
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Are you closest to picking option 6 from the poll above the others? What's your strategy given you see the guy at about 20 feet and are worried, are moving off the x backwards, and are 65 years old, etc.?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeflonDon View Post
    A man is walking towards you at night. IYHO, you prejudge him and come to your own opinion based on appearance that he "looks" suspicious and dangerous though he has not threatened you in any way and isn't holding any weapons. You tell this man, while on a public street where everyone has a right to walk where they please, to back away from you. He ignores you and keeps walking towards you (on a public street). So, you take your gun out and point it at him and/or kill him for not obeying your orders and getting closer to you than you personally thought he should.

    The man never threatened you verbally or physically. He didn't have a weapon that you could see. He broke no laws (not illegal to walk passed or close to another person on a public street). He did nothing other than to look a certain way that made you feel that he might be a threat, and to not obey the orders of someone who has no authority.

    Is this the scenario that is okay to shoot or point a firearm at someone? What would be your defense in court? "No upur honor, he wasn't armed. He didn't have a weapon. He didn't verbally threaten me. I killed him because he invaded my person space, he didn't follow my orders to to get close to me, and he invaded my personal space." Would that be a good defense?


    IMHO, this is not a life threatening scenario. It seems like a recipe for becoming a life long felon, and servering jail time, unarmed, in a cell with rapist, murders, and other deviants who will invade your personal space on a regular basis. Even after you're released, what are you going to do the next time you're in the same situation when you don't have a gun, knife, etc?

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array TeflonDon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Are you closest to picking option 6 from the poll above the others? What's your strategy given you see the guy at about 20 feet and are worried, are moving off the x backwards, and are 65 years old, etc.?
    I'm not going to draw a gun on someone and I'm definitely an not going to take a life of someone who isn't it hasn't commented a violent crime, hasn't broken any laws, hasn't physically or verbally threatened me in anyway, and who doesn't have a weapon.

    I chose the last option. Im from New York. I've been in that situation before even here in VA. I had my gaurd up and started planning on what I would do. In all the cases, the person who made me feel uncomfortable just passed by and wasn't paying any attention to me... Heck, we both could have had been thinking the other might be a threat....
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  15. #60
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    Really......6'.....or 4'. Heck, even at 10' it might be too late to "warn talk them down" and put my hand on my weapon. An attacker can cover 10' in one second.

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