How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? - Page 5

How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

This is a discussion on How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TeflonDon I'm not going to draw a gun on someone and I'm definitely an not going to take a life of someone ...

View Poll Results: How close can suspicious guy get to you at night before you eventually escalate force

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  • At 10ft I'd be warning, absent compliance, draw weapon

    40 58.82%
  • At 6ft I'd warn, and transition to brandishing at 4 ft.

    6 8.82%
  • I would not warn, but brandish at 4ft, shoot at 2ft

    1 1.47%
  • No warning, but quickly draw at 2ft, shoot on contact

    1 1.47%
  • Warn at 4ft, draw as he about touched me.

    3 4.41%
  • no warning, no draw until he touched me in threatening way or worse.

    17 25.00%
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Thread: How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

  1. #61
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeflonDon View Post
    I'm not going to draw a gun on someone and I'm definitely an not going to take a life of someone who isn't it hasn't commented a violent crime, hasn't broken any laws, hasn't physically or verbally threatened me in anyway, and who doesn't have a weapon.

    I chose the last option. Im from New York. I've been in that situation before even here in VA. I had my gaurd up and started planning on what I would do. In all the cases, the person who made me feel uncomfortable just passed by and wasn't paying any attention to me... Heck, we both could have had been thinking the other might be a threat....
    I understand. Maybe getting a small revolver for your jacket is the answer. You can wait till the last second while having it aimed at him the whole time. Seems like it meets many criteria.
    TeflonDon likes this.

  2. #62
    VIP Member Array Fizban's Avatar
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    I will draw only when I feel that my failure to draw a weapon will result in loss of life. I will NOT draw a weapon simply to avoid a fight that I don't want to be in. I will draw a weapon only to thwart obvious deadly force directed at me which is imminent or that is happening. The badguy will nearly always have the advantage and the initiative... its just how it is.
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  3. #63
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    It's interesting, the poll results. You might not guess it from the posts, but over 50% of 25 people would warn at 10ft, the first choice and draw if noncompliant. The next biggest grouping of votes is at the other extreme, where the responder will not warn or draw until the person approaching them actually touches them in a threatening way, making the threat crystal clear. One is geared toward personal safety first, and the other geared toward minimizing legal jeopardy. I wonder if it depends on being ex-police or not, or being skilled in hand to hand or not. The AOJ concept seems to be drilled into police during training, and skilled combatants, like police or soldiers, can wait longer before responding and still get away with it.

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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    It's interesting, the poll results. You might not guess it from the posts, but over 50% of 25 people would warn at 10ft, the first choice and draw if noncompliant. The next biggest grouping of votes is at the other extreme, where the responder will not warn or draw until the person approaching them actually touches them in a threatening way, making the threat crystal clear. One is geared toward personal safety first, and the other geared toward minimizing legal jeopardy. I wonder if it depends on being ex-police or not, or being skilled in hand to hand or not. The AOJ concept seems to be drilled into police during training, and skilled combatants, like police or soldiers, can wait longer before responding and still get away with it.
    Sixty two thread responses, 845 thread views, and only twenty five votes. The only thing I'm guessing is that your attempted poll enjoyed little overall interest.
    Hoganbeg likes this.
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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Sixty two thread responses, 845 thread views, and only twenty five votes. The only thing I'm guessing is that your attempted poll enjoyed little overall interest.
    It's about what I expected, if not more given past experience here. Better than nothing. It's good when people share what they'll do since we can learn from it.

    One reason I put it up was to focus people on picking something rather than just discounting the thread, etc. When force comes to you, you respond, even if you do nothing. Choices are made. Can't evade the situation when it's reality. And the video brought more reality to the thread than the last one.

  7. #66
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    The coat jacket snub nosed revolver seems like a perfect solution for those wanting to wait till the last second before committing.

    To take the devil's advocate position against that, consider, by waiting till the very end, the perp thinks you are an easy victim and a violent struggle is set to ensue given our guy here in the video. You could be killed; you could very well kill the guy, in which case you need an attorney and need to deal with having killed someone. By hiding the gun, it lets the situation unfold to the max.

    In contrast, by brandishing earlier, if only pointing it at the ground even, the perp understands quickly that he is in over his head, retreats, and you are on your merry way. From what I've seen in videos of confrontations, well over a hundred or two, that's what happens when the crook sees a gun. They run immediately, with some exceptions obviously. And being a criminal, they don't call the police and report brandishing either. The key for this one is being pretty sure you are correct regarding his criminal intentions. The other method waits till you're sure, and this one requires you to calculate how risky the situation is becoming, quickly, and do maneuvers to help verify this.

    That said, a snub nose revolver would be nice to have for those occasions where you had a false negative guess, and the guy turned out to be a mugger.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    The coat jacket snub nosed revolver seems like a perfect solution for those wanting to wait till the last second before committing.

    To take the devil's advocate position against that, consider, by waiting till the very end, the perp thinks you are an easy victim and a violent struggle is set to ensue given our guy here in the video. You could be killed; you could very well kill the guy, in which case you need an attorney and need to deal with having killed someone. By hiding the gun, it lets the situation unfold to the max.

    In contrast, by brandishing earlier, the perp understands quickly that he is in over his head, retreats, and you are on your merry way. From what I've seen in videos of confrontations, well over a hundred or two, that's what happens when the crook sees a gun. They run immediately, with some exceptions obviously. And being a criminal, they don't call the police and report brandishing either. The key for this one is being pretty sure you are correct regarding his criminal intentions. The other method waits till you're sure, and this one requires you to calculate how risky the situation is becoming, quickly, and do maneuvers to help verify this.

    That said, a snub nose revolver would be nice to have for those occasions where you had a false negative guess, and the guy turned out to be a mugger.
    By that rationale, why not just open carry all the time and stop all would-be ne'er-do-wells cold in their tracks? They will know you aren't to be trifled with if your gun is always visible.
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  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    By that rationale, why not just open carry all the time and stop all would-be ne'er-do-wells cold in their tracks? They will know you aren't to be trifled with if your gun is always visible.
    Some do, and I'm sure it works to some extent. But cops and merchants and antigun people get overly upset when they see it, and I don't want to deal with that all day. And in other scenarios, it's best to be underestimated and have the advantage of surprise when SHTF in a robbery, etc., say when they rob a convenience store or bank or whatever. In that case, I want to comply and be submissive until I can access my gun without being noticed. That is a very common scenario in the defensive videos I've watched. By far more common than the video here.

    From what I've read, it seems brandishing can either be criminal, or it can be excused brandishing, where you are brandishing in a lawful, defensive manner. It's a matter of convincing whoever needs convincing that you drew, kept the gun pointed toward the ground because you wanted to halt menacing behavior and threats, what you believed to be threatening behavior, whether explicit or implicit, and you wanted to have your gun ready because it seemed plausible that violence would occur imminently. Implicit threats require more explanation obviously. If you don't see a weapon, hopefully there's disparity of force to help explain your move prior to visualizing the weapon.

    The judge is asked, how do you define pornography, and he replies, I don't know, but I do know when I see it. Most people can recognize threatening behavior without it being overt and explicit and/or direct physical contact. You'd need to convince people your brandishing was of the excused type. Videos of the incident will help tremendously. If the guy has a rap sheet and or weapon on him, it will go a long way towards validating your reaction.

    Personally, I'd have to be pretty darned suspicious to draw early, just knowing myself, and maybe that's a weakness. If it was clear, I'd have to get in gear though.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Some do, and I'm sure it works to some extent. But cops and merchants and antigun people get overly upset when they see it, and I don't want to deal with that all day. And in other scenarios, it's best to be underestimated and have the advantage of surprise when SHTF in a robbery, etc., say when they rob a convenience store or bank or whatever. In that case, I want to comply an be submissive until I can access my gun without being noticed. That is a very common scenario in the defensive videos I've watched. By far more common than the video here.
    Have you ever done any force-on-force training?
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  11. #70
    VIP Member Array TeflonDon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Sixty two thread responses, 845 thread views, and only twenty five votes. The only thing I'm guessing is that your attempted poll enjoyed little overall interest.
    Probably because people are suffering from a case of deja vu being that these scenarios have been discussed ad nauseam within the last couple of weeks... Seems like the same "when to draw and/or shoot" debate question repackaged in dozens of different scenarios with the same answers and suggestions being given...

    1. Started by erichard, Jan 03, 2017 | Poll: How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? | (69+ post)
    2. Started by erichard, Dec 28, 2016 | Disparity of force, intimidation leading to .... | (115 post thread closed)
    3. Started by erichard, Dec 22, 2016 | ? giving up your gun in an armed robbery. | (85 post)
    4. Started by erichard, Jan 18, 2016 | In line for ATM, things go bad | (109 post)
    5. Started by erichard, Jan 11, 2016 | When do you react and how? | (143 post thread closed)
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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    While I am elderly if some fool appears to be a threat I will issue a verbal warning and if that fails the next response will be a warning shot to COM. I did not get to my age by being foolish.
    Quite right!


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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Have you ever done any force-on-force training?
    not personally. I've watched many, many hours of force on force training videos where the essence of the instruction is taught.I haven't done practical training yet.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeflonDon View Post
    Probably because people are suffering from a case of deja vu being that these scenarios have been discussed ad nauseam within the last couple of weeks... Seems like the same "when to draw and/or shoot" debate question repackaged in dozens of different scenarios with the same answers and suggestions being given...
    Last couple weeks? You have quoted a year's worth of threads. I beg people who grow tired of discussing scenarios on the scenario board to PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE...do us the favor of skipping my threads. Spare us both the pain.

    re: "ad nauseam"
    Thread has over 120 likes so far. Why do people want to shut them down when all they need do is ignore the thread? Anyone ever figure that out?
    Last edited by erichard; January 4th, 2017 at 10:24 PM.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    not personally. I've watched many, many hours of force on force training videos where the essence of the instruction is taught.I haven't done practical training yet.
    I would suggest taking it to the next level and do some practical training.
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I would suggest taking it to the next level and do some practical training.
    Maybe so. I'm running out of things to read and watch and discuss.

    I will say that often instructors aim to teach what is clear and without gray areas. The legal gray areas where there is tremendous controversy can be glossed over, partly because there is no good answer, and partly because the instructor doesn't want to be responsible for vicarious liability, where controversial scenarios and solutions may be misinterpreted or misremembered, etc. The training often sticks to simplistic rules. Some here are caught up in this mentality too. The simple questions are simple. The complicated, gray areas in scenarios are complicated. Those are the interesting questions that apparently some feel are brought up "ad nauseam". I suspect many don't feel the same. Those are the people I'd like to sort out the reasonable man logic with. If there are attorneys on the board, even better.

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