How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? - Page 6

How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

This is a discussion on How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Each instance of a sd outcome is scrutinized on it's own merits. Hence one answer in one scenario isn't going to be the same answer ...

View Poll Results: How close can suspicious guy get to you at night before you eventually escalate force

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  • At 10ft I'd be warning, absent compliance, draw weapon

    40 58.82%
  • At 6ft I'd warn, and transition to brandishing at 4 ft.

    6 8.82%
  • I would not warn, but brandish at 4ft, shoot at 2ft

    1 1.47%
  • No warning, but quickly draw at 2ft, shoot on contact

    1 1.47%
  • Warn at 4ft, draw as he about touched me.

    3 4.41%
  • no warning, no draw until he touched me in threatening way or worse.

    17 25.00%
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Thread: How close can suspicious guy(s) get to you at night before drawing your gun?

  1. #76
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    Each instance of a sd outcome is scrutinized on it's own merits. Hence one answer in one scenario isn't going to be the same answer in another case/scenario.

    What is black and white are the 3 prongs necessary all over the US to employ lethal force against another. Means, motive, opportunity and the threat to grave bodily harm or death had better have been imminent.

    It's the three prongs that change in each scenario, how they are layed out for decision making on use of force. But they must be present. If one can't articulate their position clearly that they realistically believed they were in imminent threat of GBH or death and why each prong wast met lawfully, then the grey areas creep into the scenario/discussion of innocence or guilt.

    Instructors can't give you cut and dried answers beyond the 3 prongs and imminency being necessary to use lethal force anymore than an atty could give blanket black and white clear answers that would be useful in all sd scenarios. It's up to the person carrying and ready to apply deadly force to understand the tenets of the law, act within that law and not give pause where scrutinization of an over reaction leads to questionable lawful deadly force application.

    If one is looking for black and white answers that may cover every, or even the majority of lethal force responses, stop, as they don't exist. One doesn't know what they will or won't do until put into ad lib scenarios in fof, or have actually been in battle [ and remembering that no two scenarios will be met under the same tactics/circumstances, one better get used to thinking on their feet under duress, not just continue to line shoot at a public range. Tactics plays as big a role as skills levels, maybe more so most of the time as you can do everything right and lose or do everything wrong and come out on top.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Instructors can't give you cut and dried answers beyond the 3 prongs and imminency being necessary to use lethal force anymore than an atty could give blanket black and white clear answers that would be useful in all sd scenarios.
    I agree, which is why it can be interesting to go over individual scenarios here. The more you review, the better feel you have for what is "normal" and accepted logic. It's much preferable to go over complicated scenarios here, than in the two seconds prior to drawing in a real scenario. As I said before, think of it as "what if" training. If you have a plan for many typical or atypical scenarios, you can approximate a good response for ones you haven't ever spoke of. It's vicarious practical training with the armchair experts here voicing opinions and changing minds.

    As an example, in the main video here, the fellow John says the main error was situational awareness. Although situational awareness was clearly a major problem, the bigger problem was what to do even had he seen it coming. So the easy problem is brought up, but the difficult one is essentially ignored. Looking at the poll, there's no real consensus from the readers, and potentially, those in the minority are correct. Would be nice to figure that out, and like you said, instructors can't go into such detail, nor into so many different cases because it would be cost prohibitive in many ways.

  3. #78
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    If you have a plan for many typical or atypical scenarios, you can approximate a good response for ones you haven't ever spoke of

    The problem with plans is the BG's haven't read the script you're preparing for mentally.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    https://www.youtube.com/user/azqkr

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  5. #79
    Member Array erichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    If you have a plan for many typical or atypical scenarios, you can approximate a good response for ones you haven't ever spoke of

    The problem with plans is the BG's haven't read the script you're preparing for mentally.
    Right, but if you have only two scenarios in your head, the likelihood of the incident being close to your script is pretty low. If you have 100 scenarios in your head, one or two of them or some amalgamation of 5 of them will guide you in a timely fashion. When you practice martial arts, you do repetitions vs various physical attacks. You rehearse as many as you can rehearse and analyze the most efficient way of doing it. The more attacks you rehearse against, the more fluid and automatic your responses are, almost at the unconscious level. If you review many, many scenarios, and you discuss them with knowledgeable people, you will be way ahead of the crowd. Classes can be limited in nature, though beneficial at the same time.

    I learn from everybody except those who try to shutdown the conversation.

  6. #80
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    Two young couples were in a store and my wife decided to use the bathroom at the far back corner down the hall way. I hung along the back wall outside the hallway. One of these young guys makes it a point to try to walk up behind me. I turned and went down one of the aisles. I found a place where I could back up against a big pipe running through the roof and down through the floor. I kept the shopping cart in front of me and faced out towards the end of the aisle. This young guy literally ran across the end of the aisle and stopped for a second and looked at me. I was in a defensive stance with my hand on my gun in my pocket and I didn't have to tell him that he was making a mistake because he ducked back out of that aisle as quickly as he ran into it and I didn't see him again until we were leaving the store. He was in the check out line with his friends and I smiled at him as we left and he gave me an angry look. I reacted to what was happening not to what I was expecting to happen. I think we both knew that I would have drawn the gun if he had came down that aisle after me.
    Renaldow likes this.

  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Sixty two thread responses, 845 thread views, and only twenty five votes. The only thing I'm guessing is that your attempted poll enjoyed little overall interest.
    I didnt vote, none expressed anything I could vote on without more specifics or qualifications.
    Renaldow likes this.

  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I didnt vote, none expressed anything I could vote on without more specifics or qualifications.
    I wish I could have been more specific, but when you type the poll up, you are only allowed a short sentence for each choice. I tried to add qualifications in the first post, but some here apparently get weary if too many assumptions/qualifications are brought up. And it's hard to qualify it after the original post without getting some criticism as well. Plus, the first post is fairly long as well.

  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Maybe so. I'm running out of things to read and watch and discuss.

    I will say that often instructors aim to teach what is clear and without gray areas. The legal gray areas where there is tremendous controversy can be glossed over, partly because there is no good answer, and partly because the instructor doesn't want to be responsible for vicarious liability, where controversial scenarios and solutions may be misinterpreted or misremembered, etc. The training often sticks to simplistic rules. Some here are caught up in this mentality too. The simple questions are simple. The complicated, gray areas in scenarios are complicated. Those are the interesting questions that apparently some feel are brought up "ad nauseam". I suspect many don't feel the same. Those are the people I'd like to sort out the reasonable man logic with. If there are attorneys on the board, even better.
    I'm thinking that after you go through decent force-on-force training, you will realize that the clarity you are striving for often simply doesn't exist. It's all gray. Questions about times, verbal warnings, distances, and other what ifs can only be honestly answered with "It depends".
    Bad Bob, AzQkr, Renaldow and 2 others like this.
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  10. #84
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    I did not vote. Every situation is different and should be dealt with differently. Every problem is not a gun problem. How do you decide if someone is "suspicious"?
    9MMare and bmcgilvray like this.
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  11. #85
    MJK
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    I have been in this exact position. My response was to thrust out my weak side arm while protecting my strong side with hand on weapon and yelling "stop, stay away and don't come any closer." This occurred as my adversary approached the "30 foot red line" which is the minimum distance I can tolerate from an approaching threat.

    It worked. He stopped like he hit a brick wall, turned, and walked away cussing like a highly dissatisfied DI.
    [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. ---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by GpTom View Post
    Two young couples were in a store and my wife decided to use the bathroom at the far back corner down the hall way. I hung along the back wall outside the hallway. One of these young guys makes it a point to try to walk up behind me. I turned and went down one of the aisles. I found a place where I could back up against a big pipe running through the roof and down through the floor. I kept the shopping cart in front of me and faced out towards the end of the aisle. This young guy literally ran across the end of the aisle and stopped for a second and looked at me. I was in a defensive stance with my hand on my gun in my pocket and I didn't have to tell him that he was making a mistake because he ducked back out of that aisle as quickly as he ran into it and I didn't see him again until we were leaving the store. He was in the check out line with his friends and I smiled at him as we left and he gave me an angry look. I reacted to what was happening not to what I was expecting to happen. I think we both knew that I would have drawn the gun if he had came down that aisle after me.
    Man, you make life interesting.....
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
    Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
    Amen

  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeflonDon View Post
    I'm not going to draw a gun on someone and I'm definitely an not going to take a life of someone who isn't it hasn't commented a violent crime, hasn't broken any laws, hasn't physically or verbally threatened me in anyway, and who doesn't have a weapon.

    I chose the last option. Im from New York. I've been in that situation before even here in VA. I had my gaurd up and started planning on what I would do. In all the cases, the person who made me feel uncomfortable just passed by and wasn't paying any attention to me... Heck, we both could have had been thinking the other might be a threat....
    This is why it is a good idea to take some evasive action. Change direction, cross the street, walk towards the threat, duck into a store (if opened)... anything that will highlight the other's direction, intent, and actions before taking things to the next, and more extreme, levels.
    Hoganbeg likes this.
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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Some do, and I'm sure it works to some extent. But cops and merchants and antigun people get overly upset when they see it...
    Fortunately we don't have that problem here in Virginia. I open carried on a daily basis for 7 1/2 years, until two years ago, and never had a problem with any store owners, managers, or police. I did have one negative encounter in August 2009 in a McDonald's from a man who claimed he was a retired LEO. Judging from his accent, he was definitely not from Virginia but from some state up in the northeast. That was it. And I entered police stations, state legislators' buildings and offices, state liquor stores, banks, and a host of other establishments and not one time had any problems. Frankly, most people don't even see an openly carried sidearm and when they do they tend to think the carrier is in some facet of law enforcement.

    BTW, I rarely open carry any more. I have my reasons and I fully support those who choose to carry in this manner.
    Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; January 4th, 2017 at 09:33 AM.
    TeflonDon likes this.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    I wish I could have been more specific, but when you type the poll up, you are only allowed a short sentence for each choice. I tried to add qualifications in the first post, but some here apparently get weary if too many assumptions/qualifications are brought up. And it's hard to qualify it after the original post without getting some criticism as well. Plus, the first post is fairly long as well.
    Specificity is the problem with your poll.
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  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    The coat jacket snub nosed revolver seems like a perfect solution for those wanting to wait till the last second before committing.

    To take the devil's advocate position against that, consider, by waiting till the very end, the perp thinks you are an easy victim and a violent struggle is set to ensue given our guy here in the video. You could be killed; you could very well kill the guy, in which case you need an attorney and need to deal with having killed someone. By hiding the gun, it lets the situation unfold to the max.

    In contrast, by brandishing earlier, if only pointing it at the ground even, the perp understands quickly that he is in over his head, retreats, and you are on your merry way. From what I've seen in videos of confrontations, well over a hundred or two, that's what happens when the crook sees a gun. They run immediately, with some exceptions obviously. And being a criminal, they don't call the police and report brandishing either. The key for this one is being pretty sure you are correct regarding his criminal intentions. The other method waits till you're sure, and this one requires you to calculate how risky the situation is becoming, quickly, and do maneuvers to help verify this.

    That said, a snub nose revolver would be nice to have for those occasions where you had a false negative guess, and the guy turned out to be a mugger.

    A gun is not a talisman..

    when a person has direct experience dealing with violent predatory people, they can quickly realize that the most dangerous people among the citizenry are not always deterred by the exhibition or presentation of a weapon. Common sense and the careful weighing of circumstances ( risk v gains v consequence) are not a substantial part of what makes up most violent crime. If it were, most violent crimes would not occur. Can a firearm help? Sure!, its a force multiplier. To what degree it deters ( if at all) has more to do with the nature of the criminal at hand and less to do with any belief that it acts as a magic charm.

    If the criminal you encounter happens to be mentally disturbed, under the influence of drugs, suffering from the effects of drug withdrawal, responding to a perceived dire need or pressured by gang influence.. good luck trying to predict their actions vs the magic charm.
    Bad Bob likes this.
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