defending against teens - Page 2

defending against teens

This is a discussion on defending against teens within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by vinnie A couple things... 1. Many "gangbangers" regardless of age, will not necessarily run or scatter at the sight of a gun. ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnie View Post
    A couple things...

    1. Many "gangbangers" regardless of age, will not necessarily run or scatter at the sight of a gun. Some will attack you or even pull out a gun and shoot at you. There are many who won't hesitate to shoot/stab/kill you for no reason at all.

    2. The "wannabe" gangbangers can be the worst for two reasons... they still feel they have "something to prove" so many times they will do something just to feel tougher themselves instead of thinking rationally... and you also have a "mob" mentality possible with that many in a group. It can quickly get out of hand, especially if they feel the need to look tough in front of their friends.

    This is true. And that usual ghetto "this aint over" is how things turn into him and his distributors and other dealer buddies coming and killing your neighbors son, or raping his little sister/kiling her,or all three. Keep your eyes peeled,things could easily get worse


    "To blame a gun for a mans decision is to foolishly attribute free will to an inanimate object"- Colion Noir.

  2. #17
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    I'm with whoever said that you need to take into strong consideration that you came into the middle of something that happened before you showed up. You may know the players, but the dress rehearsal already started and you don't have the script.

    As far as what you did, I think it was fine. You have 12-15 teenagers who -- in all likelihood -- at least one of them was carrying a lethal weapon if not easily more. In the middle you had two people in the middle duking it out. The screwdriver, as someone else said, was not for tightening any loose screws, it was for tightening "Brian".

    I was not there and I don't have all the facts but what I would recommend for future reference if you happen to come upon it again would be this... You said you always carry a cellphone, hand it to the person that you arrived with and have them call 9-1-1 for a fight in progress at that address, also have them mention that you a neighbor (you) are going to try to break it up. DO NOT mention that you are armed. At the point when you arrived you did not immediately note a lethal force or potentially lethal force situation. Until and unless that it immediately apparent when you arrive, don't volunteer that information. If it come into play, it comes into play, but don't have the LEOs rush over there on the basis that there is a gun out being pointed at everyone (which that is what they'll think).

    I also noted that you had your hand on your weapon so that you were ready, that's great. You didn't mention it, but I would keep an eye on ALL the people present rather than just the one with the screwdriver. You don't know all the facts of the situation and it would be just as likely that "Brian" could pull a weapon of his own and use it on "Josh" during the distraction of you showing up. The other people present could have also done the same to you. All-in-all good, though. ;O)

    Cheers.
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    "A riot is an ugly thing ... and it's about time we had one!"
    -- Inspektor Kemp, Young Frankenstein
    This is another good situation where the best decision might be: calling in the cavalry; sitting well away from what may turn into a riot with weapons; being prepared to defend against overt attack of me and mine.

    If you've never seen a group of young toughs go ballistic, you don't know what you're missing. But you can guess, if you think about it for a moment. Ain't a pretty sight. It's certainly not something I'd ever want to get into. BTDT, nearly. 15+ young aggressors, and me with a single pistol and a loved one in tow? Got a death wish? Not hardly. Likely, a third of them have arms of some sort. Most will more cajones than brains. Besides ... they're not my own family members nor directly threatening my own family. So, it's off to the house and 911.

    That said ... The screwdriver thing was an overt threat. If placed in immediate and imminent threat of death or grave harm, that might well be worth stepping in. However, that's fraught with problems and risks. 15+ toughs, one pistol, one loved at your side, out in the open with nowhere to turn once surrounded. Bad juju.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  4. #19
    Member Array crankshop1000's Avatar
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    You need to move the frell out of that area as soon as possible or someone near and dear to you is going to die. This sounds a ghetto as any story I have ever seen on this forum.Good lord.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    You did good. Now move out of that area.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig 210 View Post
    You did good. Now move out of that area.
    Right now.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer himóby force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink YOU got the right advice...

    Quote Originally Posted by vashooter View Post
    Iffy situation. At our CC class, the instructors told us to not get involved and use deadly force in an incident where you are coming "late to the party" because you never know who the original agressor was. You may just end up shooting the wrong person.

    The instructors suggested "be a good witness" and don't get involved unless you're 110% positive of the events and that there is an immediate danger to a person's life - but you need to make sure that person isn't the original aggressor.
    I'm an instructor and that is exactly the advice I give. In this situation, what happened to calling the police? Even if they arrived late after the punks had left, why not give them all you have on the gang and the dealer and have them turn it over to the local drug and gang task force? You can put pressure on those folks to do their job by maybe making post incident inquiries, talking to the police chain of command then the city officials and finally to the PRESS about the neighborhood problems.

    I don't think I would have flashed my weapon in this instance. That is one reason I carry a "stun device." That very LOUD crackling bacon sound is a great deterrent and nonlethal. But lemme tell you it gets the attention of the subject real quick! Many of these punks have been TASERED and they don't like that sensation!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Endowment Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by joleary223 View Post
    When the kid grabed the screwdriver you were justified to shoot the aggressor.

    +1

    I agree totally. As soon as the screwdriver came into play, you would have been justified in shooting the aggressor / drug dealer.

    For that matter, depending on the laws of your state, you may very well have been justified in firing before that. The rule of disparity of force comes into play. 4 or 5 on 1 falls squarely into that category.

    All in all I think you did a remarkable job of restraining yourself from shooting the scum bag.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink I asked exactly this question in Law School...

    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    The rule of disparity of force comes into play. 4 or 5 on 1 falls squarely into that category. All in all I think you did a remarkable job of restraining yourself from shooting the scum bag.

    Okay, I asked this question when I went to law school in 1988. Back then disparity of force was the rule. CCW has just happened statewide but the castle doctrine had not been changed...there was still a "duty to retreat" on the street. Also along with disparity of force (meaning multiple attackers justified use of deadly force) there is a flip side to that coin (at common law): When number of attackers is equal, force must be equal. So theoretically, you'd be justified in also using a screwdriver and that's all. But I digress.

    Let's say you're armed with a handgun and set upon by a gang of thugs and you feel your life is jeopardized because they could easily kill you in multiples. So you pare the odds and you shoot four out of five. But the last one hasn't fled. He has stood his ground and is now preparing to attack! But you can't shoot now, because the odds are even before the law. If he's not armed with a firearm, you can't use YOURS against him.

    Even though the argument can be made that standing his ground while his buddies are taken out, makes this last the most dangerous attacker of all! Juries and prosecutors are funny critters. The verdict is probably an easy slam dunk when the odds are stacked against the defender. But as the odds (numbers wise) begin to stabilize, might the jury suddenly be led to see that the "defender" has now become the "aggressor?" That the Power of GAWD ALMIGHTY was resting in your hands in the form of that GUN and when you had an opportunity to show mercy...you didn't.... See? That's exactly why lawyers make the big bucks. It's something to think about and deal with in the form of a mental decision before the event so that you don't wrangle it as the event occurs and thus maybe come out a loser.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Endowment Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    If legal all drug dealers should be shot on sight and I think it should be made legal. Its not always a perfect world.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array joleary223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Okay, I asked this question when I went to law school in 1988. Back then disparity of force was the rule. CCW has just happened statewide but the castle doctrine had not been changed...there was still a "duty to retreat" on the street. Also along with disparity of force (meaning multiple attackers justified use of deadly force) there is a flip side to that coin (at common law): When number of attackers is equal, force must be equal. So theoretically, you'd be justified in also using a screwdriver and that's all. But I digress.

    Let's say you're armed with a handgun and set upon by a gang of thugs and you feel your life is jeopardized because they could easily kill you in multiples. So you pare the odds and you shoot four out of five. But the last one hasn't fled. He has stood his ground and is now preparing to attack! But you can't shoot now, because the odds are even before the law. If he's not armed with a firearm, you can't use YOURS against him.

    Even though the argument can be made that standing his ground while his buddies are taken out, makes this last the most dangerous attacker of all! Juries and prosecutors are funny critters. The verdict is probably an easy slam dunk when the odds are stacked against the defender. But as the odds (numbers wise) begin to stabilize, might the jury suddenly be led to see that the "defender" has now become the "aggressor?" That the Power of GAWD ALMIGHTY was resting in your hands in the form of that GUN and when you had an opportunity to show mercy...you didn't.... See? That's exactly why lawyers make the big bucks. It's something to think about and deal with in the form of a mental decision before the event so that you don't wrangle it as the event occurs and thus maybe come out a loser.
    And now I understand your avatar.
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  12. #27
    Member Array knpjdad's Avatar
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    I think at the moment he picked up the screwdriver (at least in ohio) Would be a good enough reason to ventilate the person holding it. (grave or great bodily harm), But as always mileage may very, state to state.
    I wear a seatbelt, but I hope to never need it, I use smoke detectors in my house, but I hope to never need them, I carry life insurance, but I hope to never need it, I carry a weapon, but I hope to never need it.

  13. #28
    Member Array Gadfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FknRa View Post
    I dont care how old you are. Plenty of people have been shot or stabbed TO DEATH by 12yr olds. If you refuse a lawful command and I feel that my or my loved ones life/s are in danger I'm going to shoot you. (SITUATION DEPENDANT OF COURSE NO FLAME PLEASE)
    To tell the truth I'd be more wary of a sub-18 year old kid. Think about it: they have a nearly reptilian impulse-control mechanism (medulla oblongatta, as momma always says), a kid's sense of invulnerability, and a lot less to lose (re: the criminal/civil justice system). That's why teens killers have become a cliche [and make the best cannon fodder, too].

    P.S. That's the same reason you should never get in a fight with an ugly dude; he's got nothing to lose.
    Don't forget to bow as the chariot passes.

  14. #29
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    P.S. That's the same reason you should never get in a fight with an ugly dude; he's got nothing to lose.
    Sorry, couldn't resist. lol

    Cheers.
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink There is AMPLE reason to be WARY...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    To tell the truth I'd be more wary of a sub-18 year old kid. Think about it: they have a nearly reptilian impulse-control mechanism (medulla oblongatta, as momma always says), a kid's sense of invulnerability, and a lot less to lose (re: the criminal/civil justice system).
    Yup. I start teaching them next week. This will mark my 13th year teaching in an inner city high school. I have seen it all. Two years ago, three of my best kids (two Advanced Placement and one Honors) tried to pull off an armed robbery and got caught. They spent a summer in a "Boot Camp" upstate as punishment.

    I tell my students all about my various forms of recreation as an NRA Instructor and IDPA competitor. I've shown them my online gallery that I maintain at the club website.

    They know how I feel: Old enough to SHOOT....Old enough to get shot!

    Three years ago I lost count of the number of Code Red incidents (gun on campus) we had at the end of the year. Most of these kids think they're invulnerable or they really don't care if they live or die. To explain this mindset you'd have to see the number of t-shirts with a kids picture and the words in memory of on the shirt. Same for the rear windshields of kids cars. Rolling memorials.

    They see death and destruction all the time. In fact, for many, the only soft place they can find is at school. We've got MS13 operating within 5 blocks of the school. I'd worry they were among the student population, but they can't read and they can't handle arithmetic after they run out of fingers and toes. But they can all read a scale. Care to guess why?
    Last edited by ExSoldier; August 12th, 2007 at 07:58 PM. Reason: spelling
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Endowment Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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