defending against teens

defending against teens

This is a discussion on defending against teens within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; this happened tuesday night. i went with my sister-in-law shopping. on the way back, we saw a group of between 12-15 teens right in front ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 40
  1. #1
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    the raggedy edge
    Posts
    1,438

    defending against teens

    this happened tuesday night. i went with my sister-in-law shopping. on the way back, we saw a group of between 12-15 teens right in front of the house we share with neighbors. 4 of them were even standing on the porch. 2 guys were fighting, and i could see one was the neighbor's kids. he wasn't doing too badly against the other guy, but it looked like some of the others were getting ready to jump in to join the fun. sis parks the car 20 feet from the house, i jump out and start yelling to get the frell off of the porch. the 4 kids moved, but casually. my neighbor's 16 year old kid, who i'll call Brian, was still fighting this man, who i now recognized as a 20-something local drug dealer named Josh, and getting the better of him. i would have let it finish, but this man grabbed a screwdriver that was on the ground. i moved to stop him, but Brian grabbed a skateboard and let him have it behind his neck. when 3 of this scumbag's friends moved in, i put my hand on my holster, and shouted for them to back the frell up. they backed up, eyes wide, and started to chatter amongst themselves. the fight was pretty much over by then. the druggie walked off with his friends, talking the usual ghetto smack about how this aint over, you gonna git yours, yadda yadda yadda. i asked Brian what the heck was that all about. he said the dope slinger had tried to get his 14 yr old sister to smoke weed with him and some of his buddies. when she refused, he insulted her, and verbally threatened her. Brian, being a good brother and good kid, didn't take it well. it turns out this Josh has a history of trying to dope up teenage girls for sex. so, IMO, the beating he got was well deserved.

    my question is this: i never drew my gun, but i did expose it. if the other kids (i'm sure most were under 18) did decide to jump in, and started to beat Brian seriously, would i have been justified drawing my weapon? firing it? for a few seconds, i was really very scared that i might have to shoot a kid. remember, 12-15 gangbanging teens versus 1 teen and an armed adult. there is another thread similar to this situation, but that involved two men in a car. i wasn't being attcked, but i wasn't going to watch this kid be beaten by a gang. i welcome any and all opinions, thoughts, etc.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array joleary223's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,057
    When the kid grabed the screwdriver you were justified to shoot the aggressor. As for all the rest, they probably would have beat feet when the first shot rang out. Opinion of course but that's how I see it.
    CRIME..... LAW DEFINES, POLICE ENFORCE, CITIZENS PREVENT!

    FOUR BOXES KEEP US FREE: [1] SOAP [2] BALLOT [3] JURY [4] AMMO!

  3. #3
    Member Array vashooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Warrenton, VA
    Posts
    204
    Iffy situation. At our CC class, the instructors told us to not get involved and use deadly force in an incident where you are coming "late to the party" because you never know who the original agressor was. You may just end up shooting the wrong person.
    I know it's unlikely in your specific scenario, but what if Brian had been the one who initiated the fist fight? (which it almost sounds like was the case) Brian would be legally in the wrong at that point - and what if Josh felt that he was in danger of being seriously or mortally harmed by Brian? - you yourself said that it looked like Brian was doing ok in the fight. If this was the case, then the argument could have been made that Josh picking up the screwdriver was an act of self defense on his part. And up until that point you can't take the crowd of bystanders into the situation because they're under no obligation to step in regardless of who is the aggressor.
    The instructors suggested "be a good witness" and don't get involved unless you're 110% positive of the events and that there is an immediate danger to a person's life - but you need to make sure that person isn't the original aggressor.
    I'm not defending the actions of this suppossed drug dealer scum Josh, only trying to remind folks that you don't always have all the facts in any situation and can't assume anything when you consider using deadly force. Also keep in mind that legally, if Brian started the fight as some sort of "back off from pushing drugs on my sister" tactic, then legally, Brian was in the wrong and committed an assault. While his sentiments are admirable and his heart in the right place, you can't legally assault someone, even a drug dealer. IF you do, then that drug dealer has the same rights to self defense as you do - so if he feels that his life is in danger from your assault, and he's tried to back out of the fight but can't - then he has the right to use deadly force on you; i.e. a screwdriver, rock, whatever.

  4. #4
    Member Array CraigJS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    210
    Do you carry a cell phone? If you carry you should. Best time to call would have been when you rolled up. What if one of dopers posse would have opened fire when they saw you put your hand on your gun? If you had to use your gun for self defence (or his defence) the threat is a target nothing more. A "kid" or adult can kill you just as dead!
    Be safe..

    vashooter, a lot involved here on Brians side. 20 something druggie trying to get Brians 14 year old sister to get high and perhaps having sex with her. (sounds like at least one felony there) Brian being out numbered, druggie now has screw driver. They came to Brians house, not Brian to theirs. While not the best situation, certainly a good case could be made for both Brian and jahwarrior72.

  5. #5
    1943 - 2009
    Array Captain Crunch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    10,372
    You don't mention anything about filing a police report of the incident. Whenever a firearm is involved or present, even if it isn't actually drawn, it's vitally important to get your version of the events on the record first. What's to stop these GBs from calling the police first, claiming it was you who threatened them with a gun? You, then, become the BG and they, the victims.

    When the kid grabbed the screwdriver you were justified to shoot the aggressor.
    Bad advice. Deadly force would not have been justified for simply picking up a screwdriver off the ground.


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling


    Terry

  6. #6
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    the raggedy edge
    Posts
    1,438
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigJS View Post
    Do you carry a cell phone?
    always, i should have mentioned that. Brian's mother did call the police while this was going on, and they arrived after the boys had gone, and taken our statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigJS View Post
    20 something druggie trying to get Brians 14 year old sister to get high and perhaps having sex with her. (sounds like at least one felony there) Brian being out numbered, druggie now has screw driver. They came to Brians house, not Brian to theirs. While not the best situation, certainly a good case could be made for both Brian and jahwarrior72.
    when the police were talking to us, they mentioned that they knew this guy, and were out to get him, but with no luck so far. they pretty much gave Brian the thumbs up as far as the beating he gave the other guy. they agreed with you as far as the "they came to our house, in numbers" situation. the gist of what they said was this: they knew this guy, where he lived, what his habits were, and what he was like. some harrassment may be likely, but any serious reprisal is doubtful (but possible), so a PFA is being filed. if he comes back on our property, we're to call them immediately, but if we have to defend ourselves....they said "you do what you gotta do, guys."

  7. #7
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,489
    Defending another person that is in danger of death or great bodily harm is reason to use deadly force in Alabama

    It looks like the locale PD was telling you the same thing.

    I hope it works out
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Crunch View Post
    Bad advice. Deadly force would not have been justified for simply picking up a screwdriver off the ground.
    Its called "intent", and if there weren't any screws in desperate need of tightening, that's good enough for a draw-down, in most states, as long as the state has a provision for LF in defense of another.

    "Brian" and/or his sister need to find a new crowd to hang with, in general (obviously, "homie" felt he stood a chance of being accepted). Or, you need to move. Or, you need to decide to let it flow. Getting in a protracted homie war isn't good.

    Talk to a local lawyer, if you haven't already, and get to be his/her friend. Get to know the cops in the area, as well. Shotties are great for dissuading crowds, as well... worth $200 in the trunk to me, in your shoes.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array joleary223's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,057
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Crunch View Post
    You don't mention anything about filing a police report of the incident. Whenever a firearm is involved or present, even if it isn't actually drawn, it's vitally important to get your version of the events on the record first. What's to stop these GBs from calling the police first, claiming it was you who threatened them with a gun? You, then, become the BG and they, the victims.



    Bad advice. Deadly force would not have been justified for simply picking up a screwdriver off the ground.
    We will have to agree to dissagree. If I knew the kid and someone picked up a weapon as deadly as a screwdriver, I would defend him if possible. Deadly force is justified to prevent great bodily harm to yourself or others, and this guy was in his yard. Might not be the best thing to do but In that situation but I would do it if it were someone I knew well. I'm speaking with Georgia and Florida laws in mind.
    CRIME..... LAW DEFINES, POLICE ENFORCE, CITIZENS PREVENT!

    FOUR BOXES KEEP US FREE: [1] SOAP [2] BALLOT [3] JURY [4] AMMO!

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,933
    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    this happened tuesday night. i went with my sister-in-law shopping. on the way back, we saw a group of between 12-15 teens right in front of the house we share with neighbors. 4 of them were even standing on the porch. 2 guys were fighting, and i could see one was the neighbor's kids. he wasn't doing too badly against the other guy, but it looked like some of the others were getting ready to jump in to join the fun. sis parks the car 20 feet from the house, i jump out and start yelling to get the frell off of the porch. the 4 kids moved, but casually. my neighbor's 16 year old kid, who i'll call Brian, was still fighting this man, who i now recognized as a 20-something local drug dealer named Josh, and getting the better of him. i would have let it finish, but this man grabbed a screwdriver that was on the ground. i moved to stop him, but Brian grabbed a skateboard and let him have it behind his neck. when 3 of this scumbag's friends moved in, i put my hand on my holster, and shouted for them to back the frell up. they backed up, eyes wide, and started to chatter amongst themselves. the fight was pretty much over by then. the druggie walked off with his friends, talking the usual ghetto smack about how this aint over, you gonna git yours, yadda yadda yadda. i asked Brian what the heck was that all about. he said the dope slinger had tried to get his 14 yr old sister to smoke weed with him and some of his buddies. when she refused, he insulted her, and verbally threatened her. Brian, being a good brother and good kid, didn't take it well. it turns out this Josh has a history of trying to dope up teenage girls for sex. so, IMO, the beating he got was well deserved.

    my question is this: i never drew my gun, but i did expose it. if the other kids (i'm sure most were under 18) did decide to jump in, and started to beat Brian seriously, would i have been justified drawing my weapon? firing it? for a few seconds, i was really very scared that i might have to shoot a kid. remember, 12-15 gangbanging teens versus 1 teen and an armed adult. there is another thread similar to this situation, but that involved two men in a car. i wasn't being attcked, but i wasn't going to watch this kid be beaten by a gang. i welcome any and all opinions, thoughts, etc.
    There are laws in PA where you can defend anothers life if needed. As for the other kids, only if they jumped in on it or if they went after you could you shoot. I think you would get in trouble if you just shot to scatter the crowd.

  11. #11
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Folsom, Ca
    Posts
    391
    I dont care how old you are. Plenty of people have been shot or stabbed TO DEATH by 12yr olds. If you refuse a lawful command and I feel that my or my loved ones life/s are in danger I'm going to shoot you. (SITUATION DEPENDANT OF COURSE NO FLAME PLEASE)
    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

  12. #12
    Member Array vashooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Warrenton, VA
    Posts
    204
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigJS View Post

    vashooter, a lot involved here on Brians side. 20 something druggie trying to get Brians 14 year old sister to get high and perhaps having sex with her. (sounds like at least one felony there) Brian being out numbered, druggie now has screw driver. They came to Brians house, not Brian to theirs. While not the best situation, certainly a good case could be made for both Brian and jahwarrior72.
    Like I said, I think jahwarrior and this kid Brian were most likely totally in the right - morally - BUT my point stands that jahwarrior didn't know the ENTIRE situation. As long as the rest of the gang stayed out of it, how could he have possibly known who started the assault and who, out of the 2 combatants, was the agressor and who was simply trying to defend himself? Just because he knows Brian and thinks he's a "good kid" doesn't mean that Brian couldn't have been the one who was assaulting the druggie - and yes, trying to infuence a minor to have sex by using drugs is a chargable offense I'm sure and is disgusting, but no, you can't assault someone for it all on your own unless you are in the room at the same time witnessing a molestation/rape and are going to the defense of the sister. You can't assault a criminal AFTER the crime has been committed.

    This brings to mind another story I read about a year or so ago about a shooting involving not knowing all the facts... a guy came home one day, saw a car parked outside his house that wasn't his or his wife's, went into his house, heard his wife screaming upstairs and a male voice so he grabbed his pistol, ran upstairs, barged into the bedroom and saw some dude holding his wife down on the bed while he had intercourse with her. The husband thought (this was his testimony anyway) that his wife was being raped so when the guy sat upright on the bed upon seeing the husband barge in, the husband shot the guy and killed him. Turns out the wife was having an affair and they were having some rough playtime... that guy's in prison now.
    Last edited by vashooter; August 10th, 2007 at 09:00 PM. Reason: spelling

  13. #13
    Member Array vinnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    58
    A couple things...

    1. Many "gangbangers" regardless of age, will not necessarily run or scatter at the sight of a gun. Some will attack you or even pull out a gun and shoot at you. There are many who won't hesitate to shoot/stab/kill you for no reason at all.

    2. The "wannabe" gangbangers can be the worst for two reasons... they still feel they have "something to prove" so many times they will do something just to feel tougher themselves instead of thinking rationally... and you also have a "mob" mentality possible with that many in a group. It can quickly get out of hand, especially if they feel the need to look tough in front of their friends.

  14. #14
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by vashooter View Post
    a guy came home one day, saw a car parked outside his house that wasn't his or his wife's, went into his house, heard his wife screaming upstairs and a male voice so he grabbed his pistol, ran upstairs, barged into the bedroom and saw some dude holding his wife down on the bed while he had intercourse with her. The husband thought (this was his testimony anyway) that his wife was being raped so when the guy sat upright on the bed upon seeing the husband barge in, the husband shot the guy and killed him. Turns out the wife was having an affair and they were having some rough playtime... that guy's in prison now.
    The husband should not be in prison. Wife screaming, stranger in his house, wife pinned to the bed by a stronger man, peneration already occurring. Sounds like a good shoot (and well deserved.) He had a very bad lawyer and a liberal jury.

    Another scumbag is deceased.

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,548
    I'm thinking call the police immediately if not sooner.

    Don't draw until things are pretty dire.
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Bad : 2 cases of teens, killing other teens
    By Eagleks in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: October 16th, 2008, 09:59 PM
  2. Defending Others
    By svinfinity45 in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: October 7th, 2008, 07:20 PM
  3. Defending your dog
    By stamford68 in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: July 11th, 2007, 06:05 PM
  4. Defending their turf...
    By BenGoodLuck in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: March 7th, 2006, 01:42 PM
  5. Defending your vehicle????
    By ecbaatz in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: June 10th, 2005, 08:04 AM

Search tags for this page

adults defend against teens

,

alabama laws on defending yourself against a 14 yr old

,

defending classes for teens

,

laws on defending yourself in a fight against a teenager in wv

Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors