Scenario: "That Gun Ain't Loaded!"

This is a discussion on Scenario: "That Gun Ain't Loaded!" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Along the same vein, I think that if a private citizen is involved in what appears to be a righteous shoot, he should not be ...

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Thread: Scenario: "That Gun Ain't Loaded!"

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Along the same vein, I think that if a private citizen is involved in what appears to be a righteous shoot, he should not be in fear of arrest.

    I'll use myself as an example: I noted that I drew on a human when I was 16. There were a couple other times I thought I would have to and they would have been right, and once I did have to shoot at a neighbor's rather large dogs as they were trying to attack me. I missed due to not training for that, but that's another thread.

    I'm extrememly claustrophobic. I won't fly, and I won't ride in elevators. And I'm ok with this because it comes from one major tenent of self-defense: I make sure I always have a way out of a situation. I'm the type to stand by the door at large gatherings. If I want punch and it's on the other side of the room, I walk around the perimeter. I thought I was odd doing this as well, btw, until I noticed my cousin, an bona fide retired SEAL doing the same thing. I asked him about it and he said it's just common sense. Whatever. It works for me. But I'm like B.A. when it comes to flying. No loss there, in my view. I'd rather drive and camp my way someplace rather than fly, anyway!

    I digress. I believe there are enough people like this out there that a "safe defense" doctrine, or something along those lines, should be passed.

    I know what the police see when they get to a scene - the deceased, maybe with a knife or gun, and the good guy, hopefully still standing with a gun held on the lifeless(?) bad guy.

    I can understand the handgun having to be seized for forensic testing. I just don't understand why there'd be a question in most cases. I carry a large capacity 9mm, and though I have a few other handguns, wheelies and such, heck, in the days after the shoot is when I'd be most likely to actuallly need the wondernine's capacity!

    I do think a spend case and a recovered bullet from, say, a water trap would suffice nicely, and then the firearm should be returned pronto.

    As well, I don't see how an arrest of the good guy would do any good. Just keep tabs on him - they'll likely be questions in the investigation anyway. No reason to throw a trial at him unless something that looks a bit fishy can't be explained away.

    At any rate, being cuffed and stuffed and then thrown into a jail cell - that'd be a bit much for my mind to handle after a shoot. I think that at the very least, you should have the option of requesting a psychologist and/or clergy along with a lawyer, if they're going to play it that way!

    Regardless, I think a warning "not to leave town" would be sufficient in most cases.

    Does this make any sense? That's the first thing to go through my mind after a tense situation passes - I'm thinking about being arrested after having to shoot the threat. (I'm not thinking about anything other than resolving the threat [i]while that threat is present[i], however. Don't get the wrong idea there). I just can't stand confined spaces. I've never been diagnosed with claustrophobia, and I doubt it would matter anyway except in a civil suit toward whatever department arrested me, and that would be after the fact anyway. I'm not concerned about suing out of "mental pain and anquish." I'd rather just prevent the thing from happening.

    Does this make sense to anyone? Or am I alone on this one?

    I do think Rome had at least one thing right: According to the late Jeff Cooper, a Roman citizen could not be put in 'cuffs, or whatever passed for them, by a Roman official. Slaves and foreigners were a different story.

    Thanks,

    Josh <><

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  3. #62
    Member Array cherokeetad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith View Post
    The tough looked at it, stopped, and said, "That gun ain't loaded!"
    You reply: "you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

  4. #63
    Member Array stickybeatz's Avatar
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    I only read the first two pages of responses so this may have already been said, but in Arizona, it's illegal to fire a warning shot. At least that's what my CCW instructor said. As far as what I'd do in that situation... play it by ear. Depending on his demeanor, the location, who's around, what my surroundings are like, what time of day/night it is... it could go anywhere from me asking him again to please put the knife down before I'm forced to defend myself... to me immediately using force to stop him. There are so many factors involved in making the decision to shoot that this question couldn't possibly be answered honestly by anyone who isn't in that very situation right this second. What if your girlfriend was standing right behind him and you're in a narrow alleyway that prevents you from getting into a better position? What if the kid is a 12 year old mentally handicapped kid with a butter knife? What if there's a school bus acting as your back stop? What if he's dressed from head to toe in a bullet proof robot suit?

    I'll come back and give you a better answer if I'm ever unfortunate enough to be in this exact same scenario.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Array downrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickybeatz View Post
    I only read the first two pages of responses so this may have already been said, but in Arizona, it's illegal to fire a warning shot. At least that's what my CCW instructor said. As far as what I'd do in that situation... play it by ear. Depending on his demeanor, the location, who's around, what my surroundings are like, what time of day/night it is... it could go anywhere from me asking him again to please put the knife down before I'm forced to defend myself... to me immediately using force to stop him. There are so many factors involved in making the decision to shoot that this question couldn't possibly be answered honestly by anyone who isn't in that very situation right this second. What if your girlfriend was standing right behind him and you're in a narrow alleyway that prevents you from getting into a better position? What if the kid is a 12 year old mentally handicapped kid with a butter knife? What if there's a school bus acting as your back stop? What if he's dressed from head to toe in a bullet proof robot suit?

    I'll come back and give you a better answer if I'm ever unfortunate enough to be in this exact same scenario.
    exactly, warning shots are for military and police. as a civilian, if you have time to fire a warning shot, then you had time to beat feet and were not in immediate fear for your life. agree or disagree, that's one of the first things law will look at.

    it seems the more you cut it close, the more your in the right.
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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    I really can't understand why I see all this talk about "running away".
    Man has a blade....makes a threat holding this blade. My first response is NOT going to be a conversation about his mental problems or whether his mommy loved him enough. It is not going to be a "warning shot". It is going to be unloading my weapon center mass and stopping the threat. I am not the only one here who has said "running away" is NOT a option. Physically it is impossible for me to do so. I am also not turning my back on a man with a drawn blade who is making threats either.
    If this felon turns and runs before I get my weapon unloaded on him, I will stop shooting....because the threat would be terminated. I wouldn't be shooting after him wildly and striking others. As far as the crowd....anytime you use your weapon for self defense this should be a consideration, but when it comes down to it....I am stopping the threat to my life. PERIOD. I am not going to have a conversation with him. I am not going to shoot a warning shot. I am not going to stand there and get carved up like a Thanksgiving Day turkey.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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  7. #66
    Senior Member Array gwhall57's Avatar
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    Draw and fire until the threat stops (i.e. bad guy is no longer advancing on me with a knife). Secure the area (did he have a buddy sneaking up behind me?), cover him, call 911...
    "Bad spellers of the world - untie!"

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  8. #67
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    Array Captain Crunch's Avatar
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    warning shots are for military and police.
    Warning shots are for NOBODY!

    NO exceptions!


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling


    Terry

  9. #68
    Member Array Curtis27's Avatar
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    +1 Captain! The problem with the warning shot is that you must know where your bullet travels to. If by firing up in the air, it will indeed return back to earth, at generally the same speed (terminal velocity) as it did when it left the barrel. Do to the small things such as wind and earth rotation, you should never expect the bullet to land in a safe place. You are responsible for what happens to that projectile until it meets it's final resting place. I'm sure that many of you have even seen the CSI, where there was such a discharge, and just so happened to kill someone 1/2 a mile away.

    The other issue of knives are they that do more damage across the board than guns do. It is because I can cover 10-15 feet with a knife in the time that you might have to (1) recognize the threat, and (2) act accordingly. Therefore, even though they have a knife and you have a pistol, they should not be taken lightly.

    If I felt my life in danger in such a way as to pull my weapon, COM shots will be the featured desert of the day.
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  10. #69
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    what would I do? 4-5 rounds to "high center chest" while moving off the X followed by head shots if necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikep1230 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with many of the suggestions posted here. A lot of them are either just trying to escalate the ******* contest, or trying to get too fancy.
    I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikep1230 View Post
    In most cases, the guy who comes up to you on the street and demands your money is greedy and stupid... but not completely brain-dead. That's why pulling your gun (compared to his knife) usually ends the conflict immediately. The problem is with the guys who are actualy looking for an ego boost: they don't want your money so much as they want to prove that they can control other people (remember the bully in 2nd grade?). That's the type that will see your weapon as a personal challenge, and will respond instinctively with a comment aimed at knocking you down a notch: "it's not loaded." The problem here is their actions are based on ego, and not the brain: that's why you will *never* win this type of fight. Trying to prove that you're stronger than they are ("my gun *is* loaded, and my [blank] *is* bigger") just continues to increase the stakes until they run out of words and have no choice but to physically attack. And while the odds of surviving are in your favor, I think we're all aware of the consequences of such a victory.
    How do you have any idea what is going through the BG's head or what his motivation(s) is/are? Simple answer: you don't. There is a threat, do whatever it takes to end it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikep1230 View Post
    The other problem is much easier to explain. Every time you take your eyes off the threat, you give them an opening. Every second you spend thinking about ways to prove that your weapon is loaded, targeting the poor shrub, or (laugh) ejecting a round, is another second closer to you that they can get.

    Deflect the comment or, better yet, just ignore it. Continue responding to the threat the way you would if they hadn't said anything.
    This was the only part of your post that was worth anything...if someone is advancing on you with a knife, they need to get shot.

    ---------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    After the attacker said, "That gun ain't loaded," my aquaintence said something to the effect of, "Yes, it is," racked the slide (it had been in condition 3), and put one into the air above the attacker's right shoulder (or into the ground to the side of the sidewalk; I got two different stories, the official one and his) .

    The attacker turned and ran.
    Carrying with an empty chamber is stupid. Warning shots are even more stupid. Your friend's mindset needs some serious modification. He got lucky this time because the guy ran away...he may not be this lucky next time.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  11. #70
    VIP Member Array BigEFan's Avatar
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    I don't actually hope something like this happens to me, but if I do have to shoot and it ends up in court, I can't wait to hear the answer out of every officer involved:

    Lawyer: Officer B. Feif, have you been to an accredited Police Training Institution?

    Officer Feif: Yes, I graduated from the Kool-Aid Drinking night academy in Anytown, USA.

    Lawyer: During the academy did you receive any instruction on how to handle a BG with a weapon?

    Officer Feif: Yes, I did!~

    Lawyer: Officer Feif what were you trained to do when a BG approaches you with a weapon and you believe he means to kill you or cause you great bodily harm.

    Officer Feif: Uhhhh well, well uhhhh, if I had a taser I would have used it!

    Lawyer: and what if you didn't have a taser? Strike that question! Officer Feif did you locate a taser on the persons of my client when you arrested him???

    Officer Feif: No I did not!

    Lawyer: Officer Feif, can you tell us what you were trained to do if you do not have a taser or are unable to use a taser for any reason?
    Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!

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  12. #71
    VIP Member Array BigEFan's Avatar
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    BTW, My statement would have been that I intended to "Neutralize his offensive capabilities by using the tools) I had at my disposal, in this case a fine piece of machinery provided by Springfield Armory.
    Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!

    "Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell

  13. #72
    Member Array Headshot's Avatar
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    Warning shots would be a waste of ammo in my 5 shot snubby....
    I would just say to the BG "So your the sailor that brought the knife to the gun fight"...
    When in doubt, wup it out....

  14. #73
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    I know it is loaded, If he cant see down the barrel and decides to call a bluff he is mistaken... BANG
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I'm not psychoanalyzing any punk with a knife demanding my money. Frankly, I don't care about their reasons, the size of their ego or otherwise.

    I'm being robbed at knifepoint by threat of death or violence by someone who is capable and has placed me in jeopardy. They have only a few moments to decide if they are going to stop their attack or I stop it for them.

    That is exactly how I feel about it!

  16. #75
    Senior Member Array downrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Crunch View Post
    Warning shots are for NOBODY!

    NO exceptions!
    i actually got caught up in the pages that followed the thread start and then went with the flow. your post (which seemed to disagree with mine) made me start over from page one and reminded me that not only did the BG remark on a maybe unloaded gun but kept advancing. i over looked or mentally buried that.

    in conclusion. DDD ...dead dumb dude.
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