Seriously, shoot until the threat was stopped.
This is a discussion on Scenario: "That Gun Ain't Loaded!" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by denverd0n Seems to me that is exactly what mike1230 said. He was just a bit more verbose, which seems to me to ...
How's that for verbose?
J/K... I understand what you meant and what Mike meant.
All I was saying, is it doesn't matter what the guys feelings, ego, upbringing or any of that stuff was all about...
His intent was to rob me, at knife point, with a deadly weapon and he continued to place me in jeopardy by advancing on me while I have a loaded gun in my hand.
I have to interpret that as "He thinks he can take me!"
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
Seriously, shoot until the threat was stopped.
It's not about the caliber you carry, it's about how you USE it.
1988 DIE HARD 2008
However, I disagree with "If I draw, I shoot". For me it is:
If I draw, and the threat continues, then I shoot.
This is assuming I have enough time to assess things; obviously if the attack is vicious and fast, I might not have time to assess anything!
Just a couple of thoughts. On warning shots - I am not going to fire a shot without knowing where it is going. Into the sidewalk where will it go from there? Into the air where will it come down? Over the BG's shoulder what is back there that you can't see?
As for the situation. As you can see I carry a 10mm S&W. It always has one in the chamber. If someone approaches me, as in the situation, with a knife and makes a threat then when I pull the weapon says, "That gun ain't loaded." He obviously feels that my gun isn't loaded. I will take the opportunity to let him lay down until the feeling passes over. Whether that takes 2 COM and 1 head or more is not relevant. When there is no longer a threat he can lay down until the feeling passes over.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein
snip from Dwight55
Nahh, . . . this dude's visual warning is my right hand reaching, . . . and his auditory warning is the safety going off.
Now I'm not trying to be a smart butt here, but this does raise a question with me. For anyone in the know, does the safety 'snicking' off provide more of a deterrent that just the threat of the firearm itself. My GLOCK doesn't really have a 'snickable' safety, and there is one in the pipe so I can't rack the slide, but I do, from experience, KNOW that the click of a safety coming off, (a smg in the hands of a very young, non english speaking, uniformed border guard) REALLY gets your attention. BTW with a knife involved I believe I would have shot immediately too, but without being there...I have restrained myself before in a case where someone needed a severe thrashing.
sounds to me like "snick, BOOMBOOMBOOM" dial 911
Verbally warn him, if he advanced 2shots COM then one head shot if he was still a threat.
Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!
"Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell
"A known street tough accosted him, pulling a knife and telling him that he was going to cut him.
This aquaintance pulled a 1911 and aimed it at him, verbally warning him to back off while putting distance between him and the threat.
The tough looked at it, stopped, and said, "That gun ain't loaded!" He then began advancing again."
We are not told the distance to the perp at either stage. Initially, one would be justified at preparing to shoot at least within 21' (Tueller rule-of thumb: however, the scenario does not suggest BG is charging, in which case a shot should be aborted - and was).
Once you have the drop on him, he temporarily stops advancing; he may then no longer have the Opportunity to imminently deliver on a deadly threat, depending on his distance (the Tueller drill does not address the distance within which a perp from standing can overrun a victim with presented firearm). So defensive shots may not yet be justified, in which case firm, loud, verbal warnings may be appropriate (as were given). The perp may back off when he sees you are unafraid, steadfast and unapproachable (I doubt BG would really believe "that gun ain't loaded", unless he concluded the lack of an immediate shot indicated it; he seems to be testing the victim's resolve, including upping the ante with a couple more steps [or he is crazy].)
At what proximity shooting IS justified depends on circumstances including at what point one can articulate fear of imminent injury or death, taking account of the fact that a shot person may function for a short but unpredictable period thereafter.
When that proximity is reached, one should shoot solely to stop the threat, and stop shooting when the threat is neutralized.
My points are, a shoot avoided is a battle won without cost, and an actual shoot had better be unassailable legally - I'm not sure shooting a slowly closing perp at 21 ft would be defensible in many jurisdictions.
Within what distance do others think shots are legally justified after the BG stops, and why (assuming there are no retreat options)?
Ah, the luxury of being an arm-chair analyst!
Seeking Knowledge, Hoping for Wisdom
Bang, bang to center mass. Bang Bang again if needed. Although I doubt it.
Alright, after all is said here is my opinion:
1. A bg with knife within 30 feet, you are gonna get cut.
2. Warning shots are for dead men and tv cowboys--I am not either of these.
3. The minute he says the gun isn't loaded....I'll be proving him wrong.
4. I don't draw from my holster until I am stopping the threat.
5. I'm curious why people think the bg may run away when he sees a gun and says it isn't loaded?
"All war is deception" --Sun Tzu
He would be stopped where he took his last step toward me..
With this thread coming back up, I went to google images and typed "knife wounds."
If someone comes anywhere near me, knife in hand and mouthing off, I'm drawing. If he turns and runs before my finger is on the trigger, he lives. If not, I am shooting.
No one is doing THAT to me or mine if I can do anything to stop it.
Last edited by miklcolt45; November 15th, 2007 at 04:00 PM. Reason: spelling
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.