speed or effectiveness

speed or effectiveness

This is a discussion on speed or effectiveness within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I work as a remodeler and had a thought occur to me earlier tonight. I was working alone at a clients lakehouse and it was ...

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Thread: speed or effectiveness

  1. #1
    Member Array KellyCooper's Avatar
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    speed or effectiveness

    I work as a remodeler and had a thought occur to me earlier tonight. I was working alone at a clients lakehouse and it was quite late (around 11:30pm). I started to run through "what if" scenarios. Here is the one that kind of stumped me. I am always carrying while at work, but most of the time I am also carrying some manner of "weapon" in my hand. Whether it be a hammer, utility knife, or chisel. Quite often I find myself working in an "open" worksite. By this I mean, the doors are not necessarily closed and almost never locked and there are frequently various contractors moving in and out of the area. Also, the fact that much of my work is in "transitional" areas (higher end remodels being made out of what used to be considered "bad" areas of town.) I have seen on a couple of occasions someone wandering into the house off the street claiming to be looking for a job or to look around. Now to my question. If an armed someone comes in with ill intent and catches me while I am working and starts demanding things from me, how should I treat the situation? Ok that is kind of a broad question. For this hypothetical scenario, I will say that this person has a knife on him. I, on the other hand, am working with my hammer. Do I drop my initial weapon in favor of going for my gun or is it better to stick with what I already have available. Or can I assume the BG knows what I have on me (being the hammer) and has decided to be the aggressor anyway because he thinks he has me "outgunned". I know that a lot of this is going to depend on the situation and the subtle nuances of the events that occur. I am quite confident with my hammer and have even run through certain "defensive hammer drills" (I actually have thought of that before I started carrying) They are nothing anyone would ever teach anybody or even be seen doing in public for that matter but just mainly hammer manipulation in a defensive scenario. However, with a threat like that, I think my gun would be much more effective. But then again, my hammer is already out and in hand. It appears to be a conundrum.
    Let me know what you think.
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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    It depends a lot on how much distance you have. If the BG's 20 feet away, you'd probably best be served by dropping the hammer and going for your gun. If the BG's within "bad breath distance", then he might be able to slice you up pretty good before you got your gun out. At close range, hitting with the hammer first may be the best choice. Maybe wack him with the hammer and break contact while drawing your gun?

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    The risk is: if someone's clearly attacking you and your life is being threatened, would you prefer to have a marginal weapon you're roughly familiar with, or an absolutely effective one that you're intimately familiar with? If justfied to use lethal force, I'd skip the rock-paper-scissors conundrum and go straight for the gun, every time. It trumps them all, if brought into play quickly and effectively.

    You're in someone else's house, with multiple doors open, at all hours of the day. You're in a real bind, in terms of being able to have any viable advanced warning about incoming attackers. Beyond having your weapon with you and keeping your eyes peeled, I have few suggestions. Perhaps, go with a friend if you're going to be on-site that late in crappy neighborhoods.
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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Across a room? A 20 oz rip hammer is a martel (war hammer). If you have a weapon in hand, and only modest distance, why go for something you have to dig for? Excaliber is not the answer to all situations...

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    If they are close use whatever you have in your hand.
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    Member Array KellyCooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    A 20 oz rip hammer is a martel (war hammer).
    It's actually kind of funny that you say that. In the 15 years that I have been doing this type of work, I have owned 2 primary use hammers and both of them have been the same brand and style (I went to the fiberglass version after getting tired of breaking handles and replacing them on my wooden one) It is a 23 oz framing hammer. When I first started I was joking around and decided to name it "Mjolnir". (Thor's hammer) The name has stuck and in fact my business was named after it.

    (except none of my customers can even pronounce it much less spell it. Therefore it remains on the paperwork but everything else is run through me personally)
    ~~~the biggest deficit of the general public is a lack of personal accountability.. I have no one to blame for my actions, regardless of circumstances, except myself and by the same token I can hold no one else responsible for my protection and well being other than myself~~~

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    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Situation dictates but it is not the best idea to introduce a handgun in extreme close quarters unless highly proficient in access, retention and practical application. Myself and many other trainers preach the necessity of an empty hand skill set.

    In this case I would drop the hammer from your hand and be ready with empty hands. My goal here would be to control the knife. 1.5 seconds (an average draw and shot) of a knife attack is to long in my book. Once the knife is controlled a little pain compliance is all that is needed. IMO, hitting with a hammer usually doesn't look good in front of a grand jury, here it would be A-OK. If needed, I would gain distance to safely draw my handgun.
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    Go with what ou've got unless you are sure that you can replace in time with something better. Also, as opposed to dropping the hammer, I might be inclined to throw it at the BGs head. Might get lucky or at least buy a second.
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Across a room? A 20 oz rip hammer is a martel (war hammer). If you have a weapon in hand, and only modest distance, why go for something you have to dig for? Excaliber is not the answer to all situations...
    Agreed. ^^

    In such a scenario my first thought would be toward where can I reposition myself to so that I can; 1) Increase distance because distance is my very best friend & protector, 2) Buy myself time because with time I can then better think and formulate a plan of action/reaction and then to my own advantage employ it on my own schedule, and 3) Acquire either hard cover if not concealment because the former will shield me from attack in lieu of distance and still allow me some time to formulate a reply, while the latter will allow same only at higher real risk of injury.

    With no place/ability to gain distance, time, and/or cover/concealment _and_ the BG being at 21' or less I'd slam shut my fist around that hammer and steel myself toward going to work. Somebody is going to get hurt and he's going to be hurt worst than I am because my tool is a literal extension of my hand which if I were said tradesman I wield it daily...much more so than a sidearm.

    With no place/ability to gain distance, time, and/or cover/concealment _and_ the BG being at 22' or more I'd go for my sidearm as the distance I currently have in addition to the associated time it would take for the BG to close distance would allow me ability to draw and immediately formulate a plan of action be it to draw down while yelling "STOOOOPPPP!" and/or to throw hundreds of grains of copper at his pelvis, chest, and or head in quick succession.

    Again distance, time, and cover/concealment are my very best friends. Then after that as based on those three conditions the right tool to use is the one that will best do the job at the highest degree of confidence and realistic application toward success, a success which is mandatory at pain of disfigurement or death.

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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    I think you have to play it the way you see it at the time. There are many scenarios for this one. In many your best bet may be to go for the gun. In many your best bet may be to whack him in the head with the hammer, throw a ladder at him, or whatever you have on you at the time to get time to draw your weapon.

    In your case every scenario is going to be different. Different layouts of houses, where your working, there is not a good answer to this one. The best answer is to keep the job site secure by locking the doors, but that isn't an option sometimes I am sure.

    ? Do you often have music playing when your working at night?

    Most contractors, electricians, whomever ussually have one. I know when I am doing that kind of work I do. That is probably not the safest thing to do, but I do, but it allows the person to make it closer to your location before you hear them.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    Bad guy with a knife? Hold the safety back on the nail gun and fire at will
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    JD
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    Why drop a perfectly good weapon?

    If you work with a hammer on a regular basis, odds are you can throw it pretty darn hard, QK Shooter has a thread up reagarding The Importance of Throwing a Distraction, what better offensive distraction can you think of than a hammer being thrown full speed at someone's head?

    If it connects, great. If not it should atleast startle the BG causing him to duck, flinch, or raise his hands over his face, both obscuring his vision and allowing you time to get to your gun.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I don't think I'd throw a weapon away muchless at/to a person who my spidey senses say is a threat.
    He ducks/dodges your throw and now what, you're short one weapon and he's gained an opportunity to acquire it. No thanks.

    Throwing a distraction such as ones wallet toward a mugger or keys toward a carjacker is one thing and useful.
    But some guy(s) are coming after me on a job site throwing away my advantage and/or giving one to him/them wouldn't be top on my plan of action/reaction.

    Do what you have to do to escape and thus survive.
    Standing ones ground, or attempting to do so, in such a case at a work site would be silly at best and a mortal mistake at worst.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyCooper View Post
    It's actually kind of funny that you say that. In the 15 years that I have been doing this type of work, I have owned 2 primary use hammers and both of them have been the same brand and style (I went to the fiberglass version after getting tired of breaking handles and replacing them on my wooden one) It is a 23 oz framing hammer. When I first started I was joking around and decided to name it "Mjolnir". (Thor's hammer) The name has stuck and in fact my business was named after it.

    (except none of my customers can even pronounce it much less spell it. Therefore it remains on the paperwork but everything else is run through me personally)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel

    I have a 20oz steel-shaft Craftsman that drives nicely.

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    Member Array Gunner69's Avatar
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    Too funny when I was rough framing my choice of steel was a 28oz Estwing with milled face... what a brutal thing that was if you ever mangled a thumb with it...
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