What would you do if someone (unarmed) wanted to/started to fight you...

This is a discussion on What would you do if someone (unarmed) wanted to/started to fight you... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ccw9mm... I absolutely see your point, and I agree with that... and I know you are prepared to take responsibilty for your actions as well. ...

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Thread: What would you do if someone (unarmed) wanted to/started to fight you...

  1. #16
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    Array Bark'n's Avatar
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    ccw9mm... I absolutely see your point, and I agree with that... and I know you are prepared to take responsibilty for your actions as well. A clear disparity of force applies to you even before you get knocked down. In my posts I am refering to otherwise healthy and physically capable people.

    My wife is in the same situation. She was permantly injured in the line of duty 18 years ago and is disabled herself. She can't run anywhere! Most times she uses a walking stick just to walk in public so her knee doesn't give out.

    She doesn't have the luxury of running away and has the handicap parking permit to prove it along with a fire dept. disability pension. She can't do any reasonable hand to hand combat skills without ending up on the ground. And so, she carries a gun everywhere 24/7
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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  3. #17
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    If no physical contact...use my cane to walk away...
    If there is physical contact...use my cane, then walk away...

    Really, avoid confrontation at all costs...
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  4. #18
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    retsupt99...nail on the head!

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    This is a great thread. Lots of good insights.
    Bark'n.......I've been looking at some of the educational materal out there, Ayoob's stuff in particular, and now I'm completly convinced to ponie up and get 'em.

    As for myself in a like situation.....I'm a healthy male who dosn't want to take grief or punches from anyone. Having said that, I'm pretty thick skinned and can take a few hits (I know, I've seen me do it) but any physical fist-to-cuffs were left in the school yard/playground long ago. Armed or not, I'll bug out (distance is key) and call in to report it. Assault is assault and I'm not playing some aggressor's whipping-boy game. My sidearm won't come to into the situation unless his fight has turned into the gravest of situations for me....fear of death/serious injury.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  6. #20
    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
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    I'd like to know, how do you know for sure they weren't armed or had a weapon that could be used on you?

    Were they naked?
    Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.

    John Wayne

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick7340 View Post
    I'd like to know, how do you know for sure they weren't armed or had a weapon that could be used on you?
    Not possible to know, of course, until it's presented. By then, in many circumstances, such as grappling with a demented and violent attacker, it's far too late.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  8. #22
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    Typically I always try to avoid until it becomes physical and at that point you do what you have to to stop the danger to your self and bug out.

    Also, the statement "and you know they are unarmed?" comes into play. You really can't KNOW that for sure. It's a foolish and possibly deadly assumption.

    I grew up going to public school in south baltimore. Plenty of kids looked unarmed...but it really was a whole different story. Once a fight broke out...it was a common occurrence for a blade or worse to "magically" appear.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    I'll take all the mouthy chatter the punk can rant. It won't bother me a bit. My pride doesn't bleed or break. Walking/running away if FINE with me. But I'll be closely watching the individual for the physical pre-warning signs of an assault (usually unrelated to any conversation); eye movement, hand movement & contents, proximity, posture, breathing, etc. If I'm convinced that line is about to be crossed...then I snap my mindset & BECOME THE PROBLEM. Instantly, without chest-bumping or comment, I will become the ABSOLUTE AGGRESSOR using ANY & EVERY advantage I see and any weapon I can bring to bare. I'll make the line between completely passive & no-holds-barred aggressive so VERY thin & narrow that when I step over it, it will surprise, confuse, befuddle, and frankly frighten my adversary. It's HE who'll have to be in the "defensive" posture before he has time to realize what a dreadful mistake he has made in victim selection. And the more instantiously I can go from "gentle Mr. Rogers" to "screaming lunatic pissed Pitbull" the more effective this method becomes. My knife, my pistol, a garbage can lid, a leaf rake, a stair railing, teeth, nails, hair...ANYTHING is immediately in-play once that line is crossed. ANYTHING, period.

    I'll let anyone SAY anything to me. But if you convice me that your intent is physical? I WILL attack first. I WILL force YOU to defend yourself. I will consider NOTHING too extreme. And I will CONTINUE to attack you until you are UNABLE (not unwilling but unable) to be considered a threat to me. And only after all that is DONE will I deal with any consequences. As far as I'm concerned, "fair" is something that comes to the County Seat once a year where they judge hams & pies. There is NO SUCH THING as a "fair fight". No rules, no laws & no quarter. Legal considerations involve the AFTERMATH, not the action.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  10. #24
    Member Array xd.40sub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    I'll take all the mouthy chatter the punk can rant. It won't bother me a bit. My pride doesn't bleed or break. Walking/running away if FINE with me. But I'll be closely watching the individual for the physical pre-warning signs of an assault (usually unrelated to any conversation); eye movement, hand movement & contents, proximity, posture, breathing, etc. If I'm convinced that line is about to be crossed...then I snap my mindset & BECOME THE PROBLEM. Instantly, without chest-bumping or comment, I will become the ABSOLUTE AGGRESSOR using ANY & EVERY advantage I see and any weapon I can bring to bare. I'll make the line between completely passive & no-holds-barred aggressive so VERY thin & narrow that when I step over it, it will surprise, confuse, befuddle, and frankly frighten my adversary. It's HE who'll have to be in the "defensive" posture before he has time to realize what a dreadful mistake he has made in victim selection. And the more instantiously I can go from "gentle Mr. Rogers" to "screaming lunatic pissed Pitbull" the more effective this method becomes. My knife, my pistol, a garbage can lid, a leaf rake, a stair railing, teeth, nails, hair...ANYTHING is immediately in-play once that line is crossed. ANYTHING, period.

    I'll let anyone SAY anything to me. But if you convice me that your intent is physical? I WILL attack first. I WILL force YOU to defend yourself. I will consider NOTHING too extreme. And I will CONTINUE to attack you until you are UNABLE (not unwilling but unable) to be considered a threat to me. And only after all that is DONE will I deal with any consequences. As far as I'm concerned, "fair" is something that comes to the County Seat once a year where they judge hams & pies. There is NO SUCH THING as a "fair fight". No rules, no laws & no quarter. Legal considerations involve the AFTERMATH, not the action.
    ooookaaaay
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    ...then I snap my mindset & BECOME THE PROBLEM. Instantly, without chest-bumping or comment, I will become the ABSOLUTE AGGRESSOR ...
    Articulation of justification can be a treacherous thing. A jury will hear what you're saying, if those words are used to justify a defensive posture, you can bank on that. And it will be used against you. Bank on that, as well. Aggressors are culpable. And combatants that see themselves as aggressors and report it as such will have little leg to stand on, for any claim of a self defense action.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    ccw9mm, in your Post #21 you talk about waiting to discover if there's a weapon (while grappling with a demented & violent attacker) is often far too late. It seems now you're suggesting a passive response until the possibility of a weapon is a confirmed reality.

    I articulated my justification to a hypothetical threat among friends on a website. That same articulation WOULDN'T be my part of my testimony or mindset should the event then become a legal issue (I've been in Court before). But the REAL concern (in my mind) is for ME to FIRST survive & be healthy enough following the attack to GET to Court and testify. My point is, self defense is the reason WHY I took action. Once the decision that self-defense is necessary has been made...it's no longer the time or place to be considering moderation. My moderation happens PRIOR to the decision to defend myself.

    Please don't misunderstand, I will & truly believe EVERYONE SHOULD exercise all caution, consideration, patience, retreat, humility, humor & ALL actions imaginable BEFORE making the decision to defend themselves. But, having exhausted those actions, I believe I am completely justified, both legally & morally, to use ANY subsequent action to eliminate the threat.

    Court battles are won by "self defense" arguments. Street battles aren't won by having a "self defense" mindset. Regardless of movie representations, you can't "block" your opponent into submission. If you've decided you have no other option, your MOST EFFECTIVE response is to make HIM respond. Take the fight TO your opponent. Now your actions aren't defense, they're offensive. And bring them fast, hard & repeatedly (using any/everything available) until you're SURE the fight is OVER. I have a hard time understanding men who would carry & use a gun to defend themselves...yet are surprised or cautionary to a guy who says he would use everything else as well.

    No offense intended to anyone in this conversation, but by some of the tone & opinions being offered I can only guess that there has been (thank God) little exposure to adult circumstances "of the gravest extreme". We're not talking about schoolyard black eyes & split lips here. Or at least I'm not. If I was confident an assault would magically stop there, I would just take my licks & go about my business. Real world, criminal elements don't have a moral code or some sense of "fair play". Wake-up gentlemen, these are PREDATORS of the first order. If push comes to shove, you BETTER be ready/willing to go to the same grave extreme as they are to survive. Because, believe me, they've got a LOT more practice at this stuff than you do.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I believe that when you make the decision to carry a firearm, you give up your God given right to be a jerk. So, I treat everyone I meet with a general level of respect and courtesy.

    I guess I am lucky in that I work in a professional environment and haven't seen any fights among employees for many years.

    I assume that we are limiting this conversation to unarmed response.

    I agree with Ghost Tracker on this one.

    I would do everything reasonable to avoid confrontation. This includes apologizing (even if I didn't do anything wrong), walking away, etc.

    But when I become convinced that things are going to get physical and I can't retreat, I would be offsides if I could. Playing fair is for the ball field. When getting attacked, the best strategy is to CHEAT!!!

    You cannot afford to merely punch the guy and hope he decides to quit, you must MAKE him quit. The possibility of him getting your gun from you during the struggle makes failure unacceptable.

    You don't have to wait to be hit any more than you have to wait to be shot before defending yourself. You simply must reasonably believe that you are in immediate danger of being seriously hurt. You also need to be able to articulate to a jury why you felt this way.

    So. . . .after my long-winded answer, the short answer is to avoid conflicts if at all possible and to defend yourself if you can't avoid it.

    I think it was Ayoob who said that success was avoidance and everything else was merely damage control.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Wise or Stupid (with apology)

    kavity & Gentlemen,
    I've gone back and carefully re-read the thread from OP to #27 as I should have prior to my chiming-in. The OP scenerio was substantially different than what I had previously imagined. Please accept my apology. I'll henceforth be more careful that my responses are more closely on-topic.

    kavity, several years ago (25), a friend of mine in Texas was presented with EXACTLY the same situation you described, except he was in the Parking Lot of his own restaurant. He was CCW armed & excessively (physically) provoked by a smaller, unarmed assailant. He stepped to his truck (only a few feet away), opened the door, drew & threw his pistol onto the front floorboard, locked & closed the door, then returned to his assailant and LEVELED HIM. I don't mean a nice punch. I mean a knee-buckling, eyes-rolled-back, it's-all-over, big-step-right-cross that settled the issue like a Thunder Clap.

    I'll tell the story to ask a question. What do y'all think about his actions? Was he wise to take his weapon out of the equation? I mean, I guess (to a possible responding LEO) it might have seemed oddly prudent. But what the opinion now in light of modern Courts & Gun Laws?
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  15. #29
    Sam
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    I'll take whatever verbal abuse they give me, deflect most blows, whine and cry like alittle school girl till they are lulled into a sense of security/superiority then bushwhack them while they are gloating.
    Generally a sucker punch to the nads followed by a boot to the head.
    If they are real uppity I'll get a "tonk"

    Sam
    Shoot lots,
    Get Good

  16. #30
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    Walk away, not worth it.

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