This is a discussion on What would you do if someone (unarmed) wanted to/started to fight you... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Studied and taught martial arts for a number of years before getting my CCW. That being said, armed or unarmed I'll always try to walk ...
Studied and taught martial arts for a number of years before getting my CCW. That being said, armed or unarmed I'll always try to walk away. If required I'll defend myself with the required amount of force and only that it takes to stop the attack. The point at which you have to draw your weapon raises the dynamics of the attack to a totally different level. When you draw your weapon a legal line is crossed that can't be undone for you or your attacker no matter who's at fault.
“Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.” James Dean
Phil (NRA Member and Vietnam Vet)
------------- My CCW ----------------
No Guns Here Boss
I gave them to the naked Pigmy's in New Guinea
Less Than Lethal is your friend.
Pepperspray, for when a sucking chest wound is not justified.
For God, Family and Country!
After they had physically attacked me in the manner that you spoke of, they would get one of these; ,followed by a explaination of the charges that will be forthcoming by the PD.... I will not lay a hand on someone and require the same from them.
"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier
and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the
service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the
love and thanks of man and woman."
-- Thomas Paine (The American Crisis, No. 1, 19 December 1776)
I agree... to a point. The problem I have always had with "implements" is that for something like pepper spray or a stun gun. That's it. You've got what you've got. If it doesn't work you'll be digging for the next tool off of the bat belt.
I DON'T carry a knife. Mainly because any blade I would carry that's long & heavy enough to do what I'd need it to do for seld defense would land me in jail. (I thin kthis is stupid. If I can get a concealed pistol license, then give me a permit to carry a full-sized combat knife as well.) I do carry a yawara stick and occasionally a full sized walking stick because I can escalate the amount of force I use with those tools. The same is true with the empty hand techniques. I don't have to crush someones wind pipe of kneecap but I could if I needed to. The same weapon can be lethal or non-lethal depending on the application.
I would pee my pants and fall over on the ground sobbing "PLEASE, NO!!!!"
A man in the hands of his enemies is flesh, and shudderingly vulnerable. - author unknown
Next time, put these details in your original post.For those of you that said you would avoid the situation completely...let me put my situation in perspective. I was walking down a hallway at work and my coworker was walking the other direction. As we crossed paths he more or less punched me in the face and blocked my way. It was unprovoked and completely unexpected (especially from someone who is suppose to have some level of maturity and professionalism). Even if I wanted to "run away" I couldn't have.
I wouldn't be thinking of doing anything "safely" to someone who walked up & sucker punched me, at work or otherwise. That's a violent assault & my response is pretty much the same no matter who or where. He more or less punched you in the face? Have your attorney start drafting that hostile work environment suit for your company to deal wiht if they don't fire this imbecile. Either that or the next time you pass himin the hall, drop & punch him as hard as you can.
As there is no way to know for certain someone has no separate man-made weapon available, one needs to go by the other signals in the event: body language, direction and speed of motion, level of aggression sensed, words spoken, and how close the potential attacker is. BY NO MEANS would I ever advocate someone be so fearful of laws that one completely misses reality. That's a quick way to the morgue, if one's not careful.
I agree 100% that at the critical moment it's crucial to gain the advantage and force a response. Like the other thread, recently, where someone had a truckload of six youths result in one of the attackers needing to be stopped via draw/demands. The question in that thread, as well, was whether to worry too much about the assailant appearing to be young, or unarmed, or whatever. Had the victim awaited proof, he'd likely be damaged or dead, what with a truckload of six homeys to back the idiot up in his murderous actions.
By all means, if you can get into a position of strength, whether behind cover, or maintaining distance, or drawing before it's too late, then THAT is what should be done. 'Cause, in the end, an attacker doesn't give one whit about your worries over court dates and lawyer fees ... he just wants what you've got. There's a small window of time, during which it's crucial to act directly and competently. Can't wait too long, else that opportunity can evaporate. BTDT, much to my loss. Not will I'm breathing will I ever get into that sort of situation again, by my own deer-in-headlights inaction. Been down that other path, and it is ugly. Though, your point is well-taken: better be able to articulate to a jury of peers what you saw, felt, understood to be true at the time, as well as the rationale behind the actions you took.
"An armed society is a polite society." -- Robert A. Heinlein
Keep the gun concealed, have excellent support gear and take some form of hand to hand.
Support gear: get good stuff, don't skimp and buy $18.00 holsters to put a $500.00 gun in and expect it to stay there under stress. Spend the extra cash and get one that works in a broad variety of scenarios. Well made leather IWB's seem to work best. Belts, get a freaking belt that will support the holster and not break.
Force on force training is a vital part of the training regime, but the stuff on that you carry everyday, slide an air soft pistol in it and go man on man. Be sure to wear protective gear that fits your force on force scenario (mouth piece, face mask for air soft and so forth). This is how you find out if your support gear works.
I wear a Milt Mparks Summer Special II, a Wilderness Tactical 5 Stitch Instructors belt to hold my guns in place. I have chased people, jumped fences, fought with grown men, rolled around in the dirt and mud, had grown men literally try to tear the holster away and it is still there. Try that with a $18.00 Fobus or similar cheap brand of holster.
Everyone should just be aware of the fact that any time lethal force is used to stop an attack and stopping that attack results in the attacker wearing a toe tag ~ you will be a suspect in a criminal Police investigation until all of the facts are sorted out.
It will be initially treated as a Murder investigation until the facts prove that it was not and that the use of lethal force was justified.
That's just the reality of the situation and that makes retreating (if possible) your very best option.
For sure it's the option that will "tear your world up" the least amount.
The Police will have your side of the story but, they are still going to investigate and they are still going to attempt to find out if you knew the guy that attacked you - if there were drugs involved - if you were secretly diddling his Wife or his girlfriend or he owed you money - it's possible that it can all get extremely messy and life shattering.
There may be a warrant issued to search your house all kinds of other good stuff.
Walking away if it's at all possible will always be your option but, if you have no choice but, to respond with deadly force then that is what you had to do - be prepared for a true hassle until you get sorted out though.
All this "walking away" & "martial arts situational awareness" is great. Couldn't agree more if those are viable options.
If I get punched & the guy moves on, it's a legal (assault) issue. It's when I get punched & he continues to pursue another immediate opportunity to punch me again that the critical (lethal) decisions need to be made IN A HURRY. I used this Col. Jeff Cooper quote recently in another thread, but I think it's applicable here as well..."the proper mindset about the use of lethal force must be achieved long before a lethal condition developes".
There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.
very true on Cooper's part there Tracker
as for my in this situation, I'm 6'4" 215, if someone smaller than me starts a confontation/fight he either is 1)stupid, 2)is trained to fight somehow 3) is on something (pcp is a wonderful way to increase one's strength) and can't be judged by size alone or 4) is wanting to rob me or worse
I'm no blackbelt in anything but I've been trained and practice some self defense things that aren't designed to win points in a match but rather put a stop to things quickly if need be. I'm all for learning H2H defense and want to learn more. If I was in your situation I think I'd do exactly what you did...not take his crap as he cornered me in a bathroom and get out of there as quickly as possible.
Sometimes you gotta cowboy up and knock the snot outta somebody that deserves it. If they employ a weapon (2x4, tire iron, brick, knife, gun, bat, etc) thats a whole other story and you better be prepared to fill your hand and defend against lethal force or severe bodily harm.
I also believe in getting quality carry rigs that won't let your weapon leave the holster until you want it to. My kydex rig has tension screws and I like them.
Certified Glock Armorer
"I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?
On two separate occaisions in my life (childhood doesn't count...fights were like air molecules when you're 8), I've had adult males force the issue. Both times, they hit me first.
On one occaision, I had somebody get REALLY pissed off at me during one of our over 30 basketball games. I calmly explained to my assailant that fighting in public is stupid, if he wanted to, we could go to the gym and put on some pads and settle whatever he needed settle. He popped me in the mouth and danced back! Now, at our gym, we often spar sans headgear. This means taking a decent pop in the mouth isn't all that rare. All in all, I was less rattled than if I hadn't been training for years, right? I'm no tough guy, but I'm more accustomed to getting hit than somebody who doesn't engage in sparring. This doesn't mean I like it or that I enjoy fighting in public.
OK, so I told him that wasn't cool, he should calm down and not do that again. I actually let him pop me in the mouth again, this time tasting a little blood. Honestly, I was still trying to get him to settle down when he swung again, so I moved.
It was easy to shoot in on him, pick him up and land on top of him, driving the top o' my bald skull into his chin. Long story short, his wife called me while they were on the way to the hospital to repair a demolished nose. She wanted to apologize that her husband is such an *******, and we agreed that no court stuff would be necessary. I actually got an apology from him a while later. That was nice.
The other time was a case of mistaken identity. I got cold-cocked by a HUGE cowboy here in Lexington who thought I was somebody else (Pabst prescription glasses, no doubt). I took a hell of a shot to the temple and collapsed like so many stacked cards. Might have had a chance if I saw him coming...darn me for talking to the bartender abotu what our table would like to drink.
The coolest part? My wife laid the guy out for me! Seriously! I'm pretty much OUT, just coming to my feet, and suddenly she's there! My Jessamine-county belle swept in with with an artfully placed Thai kick to the tummy o' the ol' boy. Then, she followed with a true Kentucky-Farm-Girl patented uppercut, perfectly placed and a thing of beauty to see. Before the doorman could pull her off of the guy, she managed to punch him twice more...hee hee.
The night was young, and it took me a while to recover, but I bought the guy a cab ride home after it was clear that he wasn't seriously hurt and told him to quit effing with people. Since the doorman saw the whole thing, he was glad to help me pursuade the bonehead to take the ride and be glad more beatings weren't coming. I've not seen him out since, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to cross me, for fear that my wife is around to back me up! HA!
A man in the hands of his enemies is flesh, and shudderingly vulnerable. - author unknown