Got in a fight while carrying
This is a discussion on Got in a fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Agreed Plan B.
Further in a CCW class I took years ago with instructors who were FBI and DC police they felt the same way ...
August 24th, 2007 10:05 PM
Agreed Plan B.
Further in a CCW class I took years ago with instructors who were FBI and DC police they felt the same way as this subject came up in class.
One instructor went so far as to state a scenario nearly exactly the same as this occured to him while attending a concert in the venues parking lot. He said he took a few licks whilst attempting to contain the guy (and exchanged blows) ultimately going home with a blackened eye and his firearm having never left it's holster. The attacker in his scenario was much smaller than he was with youth to his side and alcohol courage working against him.
- Janq would not have drawn muchless fired
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
August 24th, 2007 10:05 PM
August 24th, 2007 10:26 PM
Plan B said:
gotta tell you that just a guy wanting to fight is NOT going to make me want to escalate to a gunfight. There is no immediate GRAVE threat. Some may disagree, but the degree of danger has to come into play here - some guy wanting to throw knuckles does not do it.
Well, yah, maybe for you, but I am over 60, have diabetes, and the heart and nerve and eye damage associated with said, broken back from years ago and fused 5 degrees off plumb, and I am NOT, repeat, NOT getting into a fist fight with anyone. What then??? just asking.
Last edited by bob21bobby; August 25th, 2007 at 10:57 AM.
August 24th, 2007 10:28 PM
Personally, I think you handled it pretty well. Always difficult to put oneself in the shoes or circumstances...but if he had produced a weapon of sorts...another story.
August 24th, 2007 10:47 PM
I'm a senior who's worn down by about seven years of fighting two cancers. And, I'm overweight with peripheral neuropathy in the feet so I can't run away too well. But I'm pretty good with a pistol, and a year in Nam taught me that I'm not afraid to shoot back.
Add it all up and if somebody attacks me, even with his hands, I'm considering myself to be in danger of great bodily harm or death and I'm pullin' and shootin'.
"It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith
August 24th, 2007 10:56 PM
I agree with the "go back in the store"option in this case. This way you have witnesses who can call the cops and help subdue the attacker.
Now if the guy is approaching with a pipe/bat or anything other than his hands , he intends to do me grave injury and I will draw and fire, center of mass.
Easy to play all this out now under no pressure....you did good.
August 24th, 2007 10:57 PM
Probably would not hurt to take some empty hand tactics courses, either...in case you can not get away easily and still need to protect your gun.
Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.
I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
August 24th, 2007 11:18 PM
Well i better think about this more but in ccw class i was told its NOT justified if someone's thowing blows (though i agree with the what if he gets my gun comment) but if hes throwing blows & your backed against a wall its JUSTIFIED because w/your head against a wall theres no where for your noodle to say like recoil. Again just what i was told, ill ask the instructers in our Tacticle Defense Training Class at the gun club though.
Either way very hard call & u did good, just glad thats how it turned out
August 24th, 2007 11:25 PM
Good questions--kinda makes you rethink your carry rig? Personally, I would seek out some training for weapon retention. I've practiced with some friends/coworkers who are/were LEOs and discussed this very scenario. Two quick thoughts...if you feel your weapon has been exposed and you feel the other person going for your gun--make sure it's your hand on the gun...and fight to get away.
Originally Posted by PAExplorer
Secondly...any additional training you can get would be a good investment--do your research and find out who is providing the training, their experience, background, and any certification/accreditation (a la FLETC).
When I CC in the warmer months, I like my Blade-tech IWB (tight friction hold that must be pulled at the correct angle)....in the colder months (with warmer clothes and jackets) or when I OC, I like my Blackhawk SERPA Level II holster with passive and active retention.
Good questions, because it could happen to anyone....I look forward to see what other say...
August 24th, 2007 11:32 PM
I must use a cane to get along. I have the lower 6 inches of it filled with a piece of smaller diameter steel pipe, in case I need to hit someone. I also carry spray on my key chain. I would use the spray 1st, cane if needed, but would have no problem using my trigger finger if needed to protect myself. My signature below is what the law is here in Kansas.
A person is justified in the use of deadly force, if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.
August 25th, 2007 12:32 AM
bob21bobby - you have a point. Well taken. I'm not sure what to say to that -just being honest.
Originally Posted by bob21bobby
August 25th, 2007 12:38 AM
Another well made point. I'm glad I came back to read additional responses. It helped me remember that my experience is not everyone's.
Originally Posted by JimmyC
I do still think, though, that a threatened fist-fight is going to be really tough to defend from a shooter's standpoint in a court. If that guy is unarmed and he is killed ... That's going to be one tough conversation.
I'm not saying I don't understand. I'm just saying it'll be tough.
August 25th, 2007 02:28 AM
People who are physically disabled or incapacitated or considered to be senior citizens are not expected by society to have to fight in an unarmed combat. There is an obvious disparity of force in those situations. People who have had broken backs, partial blindness, multiple knee surgeries, heart attacks, strokes and the like are most likely on solid ground when using deadly force against unarmed punks.
My goodness, if you walk with a cane and have a handicapped parking permit, you are not expected to be able to run away. That's just common sense, and that is exactly why there is a disparity of force excuse in the law.
For those of you who are middle aged or say twenty something, relatively physically fit, or at least no documented physical impairment, the law and society is going to look at you a little jaded for shooting an otherwise unarmed opponent. I'm not the one writing the laws or even agree with all of them. I'm not saying that if you do shoot an unarmed person that you may be able to get out of a criminal charge.
You just have to bear in mind what the courts look at and what they consider to be an unfair fight. If you feel you must shoot an unarmed person, then by all means shoot.... just don't try and come back later and say you didn't know what would happen... That won't fly!
Anyone that shoots anyone has to take responsibility for what they do and in most cases, the courts frown on those who shoot unarmed assailants.
Again, I'm not writing those laws.... that's just the society and circumstances in which we live.
Anytime you shoot someone for whatever reason, you just entered a legal minefield, plain and simple. Some people emerge unscathed and some don't.
There are a lot of people with what is considered to have been a "good shoot" that are in prison for it. There are no gurantees when it comes to pulling the trigger on someone.
Those of us who have secured a ccw license so we can carry a gun to defend ourselves with, better know that. Most of us accept the responsibility. But if you have any doubt in your mind that you can do everything right and still get hung out to dry then maybe ccw isn't for you.
Ayoob says, "The only true success is avoiding a situation, anything else is just damage control" There is a lot of truth in those words.
Those who are looking for some sort of "gurantee" that they won't get in trouble for doing what they do, are in the wrong club!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
August 25th, 2007 08:52 AM
Well... I have to say that with all the confusion that goes on during one of these unprovoked attacks, it's hard to determine if you are being body punched or seriously stabbed. I guess the attacker made the first choice and needs to be aware that self defense by his victim is an option.If it all works out to be nothing more than a few punches,you need to follow through with prosecution and possibly a civil suit just to make sure he knows there are consequences. Chuck,
August 25th, 2007 09:08 AM
All due respect, but I think it is hilarious that you insinuate that watching UFC on television in some way makes you a better fighter. That is like saying you can fly because you've watched birds do it, or that you're a car because you're standing in a garage. Mixed martial arts require dedicated practice and focus to gain any sort of proficiency, and I guess I bristle at the suggestion that you can gain anything like fighting skills by sitting on your butt watching TV. MMA features 'hand-to-hand', not 'remote control-to-hand'! Apologies in advance, but I gotta' call BS on this one!
It sounds like you're very lucky things turned out like they did. In the future, you may want to think about doing some REAL training (I feel that everyone has an obligation to learn as much as possible about unarmed combat, too). You'd never have to worry about going for your gun if you can end the thing without it. More importantly, you'd probably be able to prevent anything dire from happening at all.
I guess what I'm saying is that real training translates to calm confidence. The whole goal is to completely avoid becoming involved in such an encounter. Any good instructor is going to teach you how to avoid problems entirely without violence.
So, anyway, glad you're in one piece! l'm also glad you didn't kill the guy where he stood...it may have been a much worse outcome. Email me if you'd like any suggestions on where to look for a good MMA school. They're EVERYWHERE these days!
A man in the hands of his enemies is flesh, and shudderingly vulnerable. - author unknown
August 25th, 2007 11:12 AM
If I come at you unarmed, you better be ready to shoot me.
Originally Posted by PAExplorer
The reason is this: If I do have reason to come after you (let's say I have rabies or something) I will kill you. There will be bone breaking but mostly elbows and hand strikes to the throat, head, and back and sides of the neck. Might break your neck too.
You hadn't seen this guy in eight years. Did you know for certain he hadn't been trained in that time?
Recently - about two weeks ago - I found that hard drugs were doing the rounds in my circle of close friends (only a few in all). Though I have known them for 20 years or so, I pretty much said "screw ya'" and walked away. I no longer consider them friends but dangerous aquaintences who look to prey on others.
I had a threatening phone call from one of them. He stopped short of threatening bodily harm, but did talk about what he'd do to my vehicle.
I am trained maybe one or two steps above him in MMA/Aikido tuned for street fighting. However, if he does drugs and I don't, that gives him an advantage - his drugs of choice are methodone wafers and narcotic pain relievers. I doubt he's feeling much pain.
In other words, I would be in fear for my life. A martial arts trained guy who is high on hard stuff? No, thanks.
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