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Got in a fight while carrying

This is a discussion on Got in a fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Scot Van All due respect, but I think it is hilarious that you insinuate that watching UFC on television in some way ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scot Van View Post
    All due respect, but I think it is hilarious that you insinuate that watching UFC on television in some way makes you a better fighter. That is like saying you can fly because you've watched birds do it, or that you're a car because you're standing in a garage. Mixed martial arts require dedicated practice and focus to gain any sort of proficiency, and I guess I bristle at the suggestion that you can gain anything like fighting skills by sitting on your butt watching TV. MMA features 'hand-to-hand', not 'remote control-to-hand'! Apologies in advance, but I gotta' call BS on this one!

    It sounds like you're very lucky things turned out like they did. In the future, you may want to think about doing some REAL training (I feel that everyone has an obligation to learn as much as possible about unarmed combat, too). You'd never have to worry about going for your gun if you can end the thing without it. More importantly, you'd probably be able to prevent anything dire from happening at all.

    I guess what I'm saying is that real training translates to calm confidence. The whole goal is to completely avoid becoming involved in such an encounter. Any good instructor is going to teach you how to avoid problems entirely without violence.

    So, anyway, glad you're in one piece! l'm also glad you didn't kill the guy where he stood...it may have been a much worse outcome. Email me if you'd like any suggestions on where to look for a good MMA school. They're EVERYWHERE these days!
    You know, I'm always adding to my core training. Some of it has come from video and seeing how different fighting styles work. Some of it has come from genuine Japanese black belts.

    I don't advocate learning soley from video, but I really wonder if he would have thought to give the knee to the guy if he'd not watched UFC.

    Just a thought from an instructor in the stuff.

    Josh <><


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joleary223 View Post
    retsupt99 brings to mind a good point. He will get away with more than I will, and a small woman may get away with even more. A 6'4", 250lb, relatively healthy man in his late 30's will have a harder time convincing a DA ,and heaven forbid a jury, that he was in fear of his life.
    Even a guy who is 250lb. will die of blood loss from a cut that doesn't have to go more than an inch or two into his body. And any person, even a shirtless dude who acts like all he wants is a fist fight, can come up with a concealed blade. And what if he fights with his fists until he sees he's gonna get beaten, and then comes out and stabs our 250 pounder?

    If you look at what could happen in the fight from before it starts, you realize how dangerous it is to even let it start. That's why it seems almost (but still not quite) easy to justify drawing and saying, "You and I are not going to fight. You're going to walk away. Now!"

  3. #33
    Member Array Dean407's Avatar
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    Are you both around the same age and size?

    Was there the possibility of disengaging the threat after the first swing? If there was no weapon- could you have simply ran away?

    I'm not stating that's what I would do- just looking at possibilities on how things could play out.

    I'd say if you had any prior knowledge of the threat being trained in fighting then you'd have more of a case if you had to draw your weapon.

    Since this was a fight and he wasn't balls to the wall trying to KILL you (that you knew of) I'd bet had you drawn your weapon confidently as soon as he saw it he'd back down.

    That stated, it's not too far of a stretch to fear for your life with an empty hand assault.

    Pick up some books and perhaps seek some tactical training?

    I just reviewed a book that would help you out in this case a bit:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=31436

    Had you drawn though 99&#37; he'd stop and pee himself and NEVER bother you again.

    My TIVO records all those "Wildest Police Video" type of shows. I kept one to show people how VALID it is to carry.

    There was a shady guy who was walking towards the camera guy who was just shooting exterior scenes for the news. It was daylight. There were cars and other patrons outside the convenience store.

    The shady guy is walking to the camera man purposely, but calmly and it was hard to tell he was a threat until he was 10ft or so away and revealed a LARGE knife!

    Camera dude didn't have any weapons and just stated over a few times he had no money. There were people watching this. It was odd- but real life.

    He then went to hassle other people and eventually left.

    In this case, I wonder if camera dude did have a gun and drew it...the attacker may have rushed him and at that distance he'd be injured badly- most likely.

    You just never know unless you are there or there is video tape of the incident.

    Did you ever wonder what if your threat had a knife and instead of a punch it was a stab?

    Alls well that ends well. Glad you aren't hurt or in jail.
    Regards,

    Dean

  4. #34
    Member Array xd.40sub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob21bobby View Post
    Plan B said:
    gotta tell you that just a guy wanting to fight is NOT going to make me want to escalate to a gunfight. There is no immediate GRAVE threat. Some may disagree, but the degree of danger has to come into play here - some guy wanting to throw knuckles does not do it.

    Well, yah, maybe for you, but I am over 60, have diabetes, and the heart and nerve and eye damage associated with said, broken back from years ago and fused 5 degrees off plumb, and I am NOT, repeat, NOT getting into a fist fight with anyone. What then??? just asking.
    bang
    do what you can with what you have where you are at (theodore roosevelt)

  5. #35
    Member Array bob21bobby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd.40sub View Post
    bang
    Ya know XD. I think you just gave the best response on the whole thread.

  6. #36
    Member Array sjp2452's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    My goodness, if you walk with a cane and have a handicapped parking permit, you are not expected to be able to run away. That's just common sense, and that is exactly why there is a disparity of force excuse in the law.
    <snip>
    Ayoob says, "The only true success is avoiding a situation, anything else is just damage control" There is a lot of truth in those words.

    Those who are looking for some sort of "gurantee" that they won't get in trouble for doing what they do, are in the wrong club!
    Excellent post by Bark'n. I'd add this--if you draw (and especially if you fire), "there's gonna be a reckonin'." You WILL have to explain yourself to the police, and very possibly a grand jury. (BTW, keep in mind that drawing a gun and pointing it at someone is, by definition, assault w/ a deadly weapon.) If there's any doubt surrounding your draw/fire, then it's the wrong move. "I had no choice" is the standard you must meet. If you're young & fit and carry a gun but don't know anything about unarmed combatives, here's how a prosecutor might approach you:

    "So you decide to protect yourself by carrying a gun?"
    "Yes."
    "How else do you protect yourself?"
    "I don't understand the question."
    "Well, carrying and using a gun in a confrontation is the ultimate fight stopper. What other method could you have employed to protect yourself and end the fight?"
    "I'm not sure" (now you're dead)
    "Did you ever study any kind of martial arts?"
    "No."
    "If you had, wouldn't you have been able to defend yourself without resorting to firing your gun?"
    "I don't know."
    "So anytime you feel threatened, you're automatically going to draw and fire? "
    "I had no choice."
    "Didn't you have the choice whether or not to learn other methods of stopping a fight? Didn't you choose to carry a gun without knowing how to handle yourself in a fist fight? Didn't you choose to only have the most extreme option available to you for every altercation?"

    You can see where this will go, and it will not go well for you. If all you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail. If you're physically fit, carry a gun and nothing else, you better know how to handle yourself with just your hands or the prosecutor will serve you up on a silver platter. Your only reasonable alternative, as I see it, is to carry OC as well. Have some kind of force spectrum available in your tool box so that when you're in court you can explain why the lesser-force options either failed or weren't equal to the threat.

    But as Bark'n said, for those for whom it would be impractical or impossible to learn how to fight, there is the disparity of force exception, and a jury will be sympathetic to a 60-something shooting a 20-something, as long as the 60-something can articulate why he/she felt threatened. You'll be home free.

    To the OP--glad you came out ok and that the knee worked out (and I'm sure you're willing to admit that there's some beginner's luck involved). Time to get some fight training, even if it's just sparring with a friend, duplicating the techniques you see on UFC (though I'd recommend being VERY careful...scratch that, don't do it--get trained). Put something in your tool box that doesn't go bang and throw hot lead. That way, when your gun does go bang you can explain why with some level of confidence that you did the right thing.

    "You are trained in martial arts--"mixed" martial arts?"
    "Yes."
    "So why did you feel the need to shoot him?"
    "Because he's Tito Ortiz!"

  7. #37
    Member Array ber950's Avatar
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    You did well. Walked away with out harm. Could not have done any better. All the rest is Monday morning Quarter Backing. I would be proud to have you back me up.
    Good job.

  8. #38
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjp2452 View Post
    If there's any doubt surrounding your draw/fire, then it's the wrong move.
    I agree completely with this statement. I cannot imagine a responsible CCW permit holder shooting without a dire concern form himself or his loved ones.

    However, the rest of this needs rebuttal and I disagre with most of it.

    ""I had no choice" is the standard you must meet. If you're young & fit and carry a gun but don't know anything about unarmed combatives, here's how a prosecutor might approach you:

    "So you decide to protect yourself by carrying a gun?"
    "Yes."
    "How else do you protect yourself?"
    "I don't understand the question."
    "Well, carrying and using a gun in a confrontation is the ultimate fight stopper. What other method could you have employed to protect yourself and end the fight?"
    "I'm not sure" (now you're dead)
    "Did you ever study any kind of martial arts?"
    "No."
    "If you had, wouldn't you have been able to defend yourself without resorting to firing your gun?"
    "I don't know."
    "So anytime you feel threatened, you're automatically going to draw and fire? "
    "I had no choice."
    "Didn't you have the choice whether or not to learn other methods of stopping a fight? Didn't you choose to carry a gun without knowing how to handle yourself in a fist fight? Didn't you choose to only have the most extreme option available to you for every altercation?"[/QUOTE]

    Each time I read one of these hypothetical exchanges I always laugh. The story teller ALWAYS adds something that makes the exchage biased towards the point they are trying to make. The "I'm not sure (now your dead)" response is idiotic. The question is easily answered (What other method could you have employed to protect yourself and end the fight?") with a simple, "No other method." Who would answer any other way? Even an incompetent attorney would explain that prior to any tesimony.

    You can see where this will go, and it will not go well for you. If all you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail. If you're physically fit, carry a gun and nothing else, you better know how to handle yourself with just your hands or the prosecutor will serve you up on a silver platter. Your only reasonable alternative, as I see it, is to carry OC as well. Have some kind of force spectrum available in your tool box so that when you're in court you can explain why the lesser-force options either failed or weren't equal to the threat.
    This is nonsense. If your life is threatened then you are justified in using deadly force (in AZ) to stop the threat. There is no need for a continuum of possible defenses. It does not matter whether you are a star athlete and the attacker is an out of shape, middle aged thug. If it is justifiable to use deadly force then that is you will have no problem in the event that DA even prosecutes.


    Put something in your tool box that doesn't go bang and throw hot lead. That way, when your gun does go bang you can explain why with some level of confidence that you did the right thing.
    As you initially wrote, "If there's any doubt surrounding your draw/fire, then it's the wrong move."

  9. #39
    Member Array sjp2452's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    IEach time I read one of these hypothetical exchanges I always laugh. The story teller ALWAYS adds something that makes the exchage biased towards the point they are trying to make. The "I'm not sure (now your dead)" response is idiotic. The question is easily answered (What other method could you have employed to protect yourself and end the fight?") with a simple, "No other method." Who would answer any other way? Even an incompetent attorney would explain that prior to any tesimony.
    Glad I amused you. You're completely missing the point. We're not talking about an armed assailant. Did you read the OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense
    This is nonsense. If your life is threatened then you are justified in using deadly force (in AZ) to stop the threat.
    Yep--you're really missing the entire point of this thread. Was his life threatened? The BG threw a couple punches, but presented no weapon. The OP was asking about what's reasonable in a case like this--a question most reasonable CCWers ponder. Do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense
    There is no need for a continuum of possible defenses. It does not matter whether you are a star athlete and the attacker is an out of shape, middle aged thug. If it is justifiable to use deadly force then that is you will have no problem in the event that DA even prosecutes.
    One more time--this is the entire point of this thread. If you are a 20-40 year old male in at least decent physical condition, will a jury think it was justifiable for you to use deadly force against an unarmed assailant? I don't give a crap what you think--I care what a jury will think. I'm 32, 6'3", 260lbs. If someone wants to throw down, do I go straight to guns? Sounds like a quick trip to the slammer for me, or at the very least to the poor house from defending myself in court. That's the point of this thread. Go back and read with understanding before you jump in and start throwing around terms like 'nonsense' and 'idiotic' in response to a post. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. Just do it respectfully and we'll all get along.

    One more thing--all the world is not Arizona. You wanna be trigger happy with anybody that throws a punch at you, good luck with it. Let us know how it turns out.

  10. #40
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjp2452 View Post
    Glad I amused you.
    No, the hypothetical exchange amused me.

    You're completely missing the point. We're not talking about an armed assailant. Did you read the OP?
    As other posters explained, it makes no difference at all if the assailant is armed. The only thing that matters is if the assailant poses a deadly threat. A single punch can be deadly.

    Yep--you're really missing the entire point of this thread. Was his life threatened? The BG threw a couple punches, but presented no weapon.
    Again, that is the point of the thread. If his life was threatened it doesn't matter if a weapon was presented.


    One more time--this is the entire point of this thread. If you are a 20-40 year old male in at least decent physical condition, will a jury think it was justifiable for you to use deadly force against an unarmed assailant? I don't give a crap what you think--I care what a jury will think.
    If you are considering what a jury will think then you are clearly not in fear for your life.

    "I'm 32, 6'3", 260lbs. If someone wants to throw down, do I go straight to guns? Sounds like a quick trip to the slammer for me, or at the very least to the poor house from defending myself in court. That's the point of this thread."

    Congratulations for being a big, young guy. In a few decades you will be a big old man. You really don;t get the point because you keep missing it. It doesn;t matter your age, your size, your skills, your athletic ability, or whether you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. If your life is endangered you are enabled by law to defend yourself.

    "I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. Just do it respectfully and we'll all get along."

    Apparently, you do have a problem with my post. I respect your opinion. I disagree. When you have a victim announcing "I'm not sure" in response to a question, you are attempting to create doubt whether deadly force was necessary. Sorry, but I don;t buy that as a credible argument. Either deady force is required or it is not. There is no requirement to make the fight even. The requirement is whether deadly force is justified.

    One more thing--all the world is not Arizona. You wanna be trigger happy with anybody that throws a punch at you, good luck with it.
    I was simply explaining to you the law in Arizona regarding the justifiable use of self defense. Other states have different laws.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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  12. #42
    Member Array sjp2452's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Congratulations for being a big, young guy. In a few decades you will be a big old man. You really don;t get the point because you keep missing it. It doesn;t matter your age, your size, your skills, your athletic ability, or whether you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. If your life is endangered you are enabled by law to defend yourself.
    And as has already been stated if I was a big 'old' man I could shoot him to the ground and claim disparity of force. The grand jury would no-bill me in a heartbeat. But as I stand today that doesn't work if a 5'8" banger wants to prove his manhood against a bigger guy. If I shoot a smaller, unarmed man for taking a poke at me without trying something else first, I'm gonna get a lot closer to a jail cell than I'm comfortable with. If it turns out he's a 12th degree black belt in some art and I start gettin' my *** beat, then yeah--I'll draw down. But unless I misunderstand you, you think I should go straight to guns. That's just where we disagree. If you get an opportunity to test your theory, please post about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense
    Apparently, you do have a problem with my post. I respect your opinion. I disagree.
    I said I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I never said I didn't have a problem with your post--I most assuredly did and do. You say you respect my opinion, and yet you responded to it with distinctly disrespectful language (the afore-mentioned terms). That is not respect--quite the opposite.

  13. #43
    New Member Array slownsteady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjp2452 View Post
    And as has already been stated If it turns out he's a 12th degree black belt in some art and I start gettin' my *** beat, then yeah--I'll draw down.

    Not trying to argue any particular side, but how do you know that your going to be able to draw down once in said situation or that you wont get your weapon taken and drawn down on yourself? I'm fortunate to know a few amazing individuals that are my size (about 160ish 5-10ish) that are more than capable of taking on people MUCH larger than themselves, due to extensive martial arts training. Of course you would pass them on the street and be offended by the thought of someone so "small" being able to lay you out in a heartbeat, but that's why I try not to assume too much based on appearance. Just my view...

  14. #44
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    In my martial arts training as a kid the mantra drilled into us was, the best defence is to attack fast enough, hard enough, but also know when to run. You are the only one that knows how you can respond to a threat.

    I'm disabled, I cant run, I will meet any threat with as much force as I can apply to the situation.

    He caught you off guard. It happens. I belive you did well in handling it hand to hand. After his second swing personally I belive you would have been absolutly in your rights to draw and fire if necessary. However I wouldn't be on your jury most likely.

    Stop, I'm scared, bang bang bang. I say it alot. Diffuse, back away, apply force if necessary. I might feel bad, but i'm not going to spend time in a hospital over an old grudge.
    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

  15. #45
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAExplorer View Post
    Was short and sweet, but I was totally unprepared for the snap decision I'd have to make. I was approached by a guy I knew (and knew he didn't like me for something that happend years ago) I thought things had cooled down, but when took a swing at me, I realized that they haddn't (in his mind at least). Here's how it went down... I saw this guy (haddn't seen him in 8 or so years) outside a Pep Boys. He said "Hey Man" and started to walk toward me. Recognizing him, I said "dude, long time no see" and no ssoner did he get about 6 feet from me, he lunged out and took a big swing. I leaned back, he missed and re-cocked his right arm for another swing as he cursed at me. I backed up a bit and he lunged again and took a swing. This time I leaned back again as to avoid his punch and as the right side of his body turned with the momentum from the follow through, I jumped at him and delivered a devistating knee to his ribs. I have no fight training at all, but I watch a lot of UFC! Anyway, he went down immediately for about 30 seconds rolling in pain. I went back into the store and called the police. Now that this is all over I start thinking about how very bad this could have gone had he beaten me up or my gun became exposed. What do you do in a situation where your own gun could be taken or come out during a fight that doesn't call for deadly force at the time it begins? I mean, you can't just pull out your gun to avoid a fist fight, right? Comments...
    Weapons retention is a serious matter, you are far more likely to be in a fist fight than a gun fight and many gun people (as some on this thread) assumes you can just shoot people, well gang you legally can't.

    I suggest you take a SouthNarc Class, the Extreme Close Quarters Concepts 1 and 2 is an eye opener. It deals strictly with 0 to 5 feet and just what happened to you.

    Be very careful as to what you read and and believe here on the internet.
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
    FIREARMZ FORUM

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