Got in a fight while carrying

This is a discussion on Got in a fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by FIREARMZ Weapons retention is a serious matter, you are far more likely to be in a fist fight than a gun fight ...

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Thread: Got in a fight while carrying

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    Weapons retention is a serious matter, you are far more likely to be in a fist fight than a gun fight and many gun people (as some on this thread) assumes you can just shoot people, well gang you legally can't.

    I suggest you take a SouthNarc Class, the Extreme Close Quarters Concepts 1 and 2 is an eye opener. It deals strictly with 0 to 5 feet and just what happened to you.

    Be very careful as to what you read and and believe here on the internet.

    Amen!


    Tom Perroni
    www.perronitactical.com
    www.blackwaterusa.com
    www.goldensealenterprises.com

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  3. #47
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    The way I see it, some people just can't be saved from themselves.

    Personally I am kind of surprised at the amount of people who think it is okey dokey to shoot unarmed people with no consequence. Well to each their own I guess.

    Elderly, disabled people, force on numbers... I don't have a problem with that.

    Regular, otherwise healthy, non-disabled people against a single person without a weapon, and you're gonna shoot them because in your mind, anyone who wants to fight is treatening your life, or because you could be killed by a single punch. Well good luck.

    As stated in the original post, this guy just carried a grudge from something over eight years prior and wanted to slug him for it. He didn't say, "I'm gonna kill you" or "I'm gonna mess you up beyond all recognition" or any lethal threats... Basically he wanted to sucker punch him for some sort of retribution for some percieved wrong eight years ago.

    Anyone ever watch COPS? How often do you see them fighting on the ground with someone who took a swing at them?

    Why don't they just shoot every unarmed person who throws a punch or takes a swing at them?

    By some peoples logic, they would be totally justified.

    The cops don't shoot them because they know better! They know they aren't justified in just shooting a person who wants to fight. For whatever reason.

    Well, why don't they just say: "But as a cop, I'm carrying a gun in plain view, I shot him because if he hit me and I got dizzy, they could have disarmed me and get my gun so I had to shoot him before that happened."

    They don't say that, because they know it won't fly in court.

    While the police are allowed to use the necessary amount of force to effect an arrest. They are still bound like the rest of us to only use deadly force under the same circumstances as the rest of us are. Which is in an immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury.

    They may be fighting with a guy on the ground for 10 minutes but they are not gonna shoot the guy until the guy actually makes an attempt to go for the officers gun and get it from his holster or they in some other fashion disables the officer or starts to deliver blows that could render them unconscious.

    As civilians, under law... we are not allowed to use necessary force to make an arrest. We are only allowed to use "equal force" for fend off an attack. Therefore if the person attacking you is not using deadly force against you, you are not allowed to use deadly force to repel the attack.

    The law and the courts generally feel that an unarmed fight is not a lethal weapon. Now situations may change during the course of the fight to change the dynamics.... but until that happens... you are still in a fist fight with an unarmed person, generally considered as non-lethal.

    You go into court and say I shot him because one time my uncle joes best friend was killed in a bar fight and he was only hit one time in the head isn't going to work in your defense.

    The fact that it is remotely possible for someone to kill you with one punch is not enough reason for the courts to allow you to make the leap to assume it is going to happen to you if someone wants to fight you.

    If your rational is something like: I've never been in a fight in my life, or I haven't been in a fight since high school and I don't want to fight someone and I'm afraid that a black eye may kill me, then I say good luck.

    I hope things work out ok for you. I really do! Trust me... any ccw holder who shoots someone, I really do hope things work out for them! I mean that with all seriousness.

    I just feel you may... and I say "MAY" be in for a surprise.

    Good Luck, Stay Safe, and avoid situations where you can.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #48
    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    I'm in the "carrying a gun doesn't make every fight a lethal encounter" camp.

    It might evolve that way, but it isn't one out fo the gates.

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array sui-juris's Avatar
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    Good point bark'n....
    I always run through in my mind what I would do in a situation like that..
    Is it better to just turn and run? Or engage in a fist fight and hope your weapon doesn't come out? Or use verbal skills to try to diffuse the situation? So many options and variables and when I am out and about I usually have my 5 little ones with me and that just complicates things too since running away is no good and engaging in a fight w/a 2yr old in a back pack carrier is not gonna be pretty...
    Love the running knee! THat is very Wanderlie Silva-esque.

  6. #50
    Member Array albundy's Avatar
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    Tough place to be in. First you knew the guy and the attack was unexpected and unprovoked. I think you acted accordingly. Hindsight is always 20/20. The issue of shoot or don't shoot is dependant on whether you thought your life was in danger. There are lots of brawlers out there that can knock a person out with one punch. A punch can kill. Doesn't matter if your in top condition or poor health. You did what you had to do. Glad you didn't get hurt or worse.

  7. #51
    New Member Array alligator94's Avatar
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    Bad situation to be in, and it could go either way. My friend just got back from jury duty in a case in which a man shot his brother in law who was beating his son with an aluminum bat. This guy was charged with attempted murder because according to the DA a metal bat can't hurt you that badly. Some of the jurors agreed that being beat with a bat is no big deal. I can personally attest otherwise. Although the guy was found not guilty, any time you have to use a weapon expect the worst. You may live to prove what your innocence in court. (As a side note the attacker who got shot, a convicted felon was given immunity to testify against the man who shot him)

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAExplorer View Post
    I mean, you can't just pull out your gun to avoid a fist fight, right? Comments...
    Who says it's "just" a fist fight? Just? Most things start differently than they end up, and simply because someone takes a swing hardly means that person is otherwise unarmed, or not jacked on some viscious drug, or doesn't have some deadly designs on his mind (for you).

    Laws generally don't demand you take it "like a man" simply because the first volley of the felonious attack is apparently non-lethal. Rather, they afford you the choice to decide when the threat is legitimate and to be feared, in your eyes, as justification for denying the attack. Only seeing and hearing what you do, in the heat of that moment, can it be judged that the risk has now crossed that ugly line to a lethal encounter. Of course, you'll need to justify it to the district attorney, the Grand Jury and possibly a jury of your "peers." Review the use-of-force laws that apply to you in your state.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  9. #53
    New Member Array Piolin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjp2452 View Post
    Excellent post by Bark'n. I'd add this--if you draw (and especially if you fire), "there's gonna be a reckonin'." You WILL have to explain yourself to the police, and very possibly a grand jury. (BTW, keep in mind that drawing a gun and pointing it at someone is, by definition, assault w/ a deadly weapon.) If there's any doubt surrounding your draw/fire, then it's the wrong move. "I had no choice" is the standard you must meet. If you're young & fit and carry a gun but don't know anything about unarmed combatives, here's how a prosecutor might approach you:

    "So you decide to protect yourself by carrying a gun?"
    "Yes."
    "How else do you protect yourself?"
    "I don't understand the question."
    "Well, carrying and using a gun in a confrontation is the ultimate fight stopper. What other method could you have employed to protect yourself and end the fight?"
    "I'm not sure" (now you're dead)
    "Did you ever study any kind of martial arts?"
    "No."
    "If you had, wouldn't you have been able to defend yourself without resorting to firing your gun?"
    "I don't know."
    "So anytime you feel threatened, you're automatically going to draw and fire? "
    "I had no choice."
    "Didn't you have the choice whether or not to learn other methods of stopping a fight? Didn't you choose to carry a gun without knowing how to handle yourself in a fist fight? Didn't you choose to only have the most extreme option available to you for every altercation?"

    You can see where this will go, and it will not go well for you. If all you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail. If you're physically fit, carry a gun and nothing else, you better know how to handle yourself with just your hands or the prosecutor will serve you up on a silver platter. Your only reasonable alternative, as I see it, is to carry OC as well. Have some kind of force spectrum available in your tool box so that when you're in court you can explain why the lesser-force options either failed or weren't equal to the threat.

    But as Bark'n said, for those for whom it would be impractical or impossible to learn how to fight, there is the disparity of force exception, and a jury will be sympathetic to a 60-something shooting a 20-something, as long as the 60-something can articulate why he/she felt threatened. You'll be home free.

    To the OP--glad you came out ok and that the knee worked out (and I'm sure you're willing to admit that there's some beginner's luck involved). Time to get some fight training, even if it's just sparring with a friend, duplicating the techniques you see on UFC (though I'd recommend being VERY careful...scratch that, don't do it--get trained). Put something in your tool box that doesn't go bang and throw hot lead. That way, when your gun does go bang you can explain why with some level of confidence that you did the right thing.

    "You are trained in martial arts--"mixed" martial arts?"
    "Yes."
    "So why did you feel the need to shoot him?"
    "Because he's Tito Ortiz!"
    What I will explain to the police is my name, and shut up, other things my attorney will take care of the rest later, but I will not worry about that at the time of fight, I will tray to deescalated by all means, run, go away, all that, but I will not get in a "fist/knife fight", while I carry, period

    I WIL NOT HESITATED to stop the treat

  10. #54
    Member Array Dihappy's Avatar
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    I carry OC spray, although i think you ended up doing very well :)

  11. #55
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    When I was in Berlin I saw a guy diffuse a fight really quickly. This was different than your situation bc he wasn't attacked first. He knew it was going to happen.

    Three guys have one guy cornered to a wall outside of a bar. Obviously angry at him etc. They're speaking German (which I don't) and he's speaking English (which most any German their age will speak quite well).

    So all he said was "before you do anything, I'm HIV positive"

    They didn't wind up doing anything and just walked away and into another bar.

  12. #56
    Member Array Bob F.'s Avatar
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    Ya' dun gud! Exactly like you should have. Just make sure you have a good holster. Maybe you should have taken him out after the first swing! but otherwise, fine job, didn't need the hardware, but by all means call LEO!

    Stay safe.
    Bob

  13. #57
    Ex Member Array Travis Morgan's Avatar
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    My interest in carrying concealed evolved when my health began to decline. I've been big, stout, and athletic most of my life, but now, my back is totally wrecked, I have bursitis in my hip, and my shoulder pops out when I miss with a punch.

    I figure the concern about having my gun taken away is one of the risks. Everyone here seems to have a shoulda, woulda..... BS line. In an unexpected attack like the one described, just how fast are you gonna get to your OC, taser, rocket launcher, etc.?

    I suggest everyone contact their state, county, and city authorities to find out how much force is allowed in each situation.

  14. #58
    Ex Member Array Travis Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joleary223 View Post
    +1
    OC or pepper spray gives you options. If you spray someone and they keep comming you have shown the DA that you tried not to kill them. http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/sprays.htm
    Yeah, provided you can get to it in time, the safety's off, and the button is pointed the right way. It'd be funny as hell to see you spray yourself, then get your *** kicked, too.

  15. #59
    Ex Member Array Travis Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scot Van View Post
    All due respect, but I think it is hilarious that you insinuate that watching UFC on television in some way makes you a better fighter. That is like saying you can fly because you've watched birds do it, or that you're a car because you're standing in a garage. Mixed martial arts require dedicated practice and focus to gain any sort of proficiency, and I guess I bristle at the suggestion that you can gain anything like fighting skills by sitting on your butt watching TV. MMA features 'hand-to-hand', not 'remote control-to-hand'! Apologies in advance, but I gotta' call BS on this one!
    I have to call BS on that. Several times, I've ended up in a fight, and pulled some kinda Kung Fu move I'd never practiced or intended on using, only to realise later that I'd seen it in some movie.

    When I was rodeoing, part of my training was to watch tapes constantly. Evaluating body position and techniques REALLY stepped my game up. When I spent a year and a half in and out of casts on both wrists, I watched a LOT of tapes. I rode the crap out of the first bull I got on.

    I'm not saying watching Steven Segal (hate that greasy *******) will teach you to walk in a room and break people's necks by looking at them, but there is PLENTY to be learned by observation.

  16. #60
    Ex Member Array Travis Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjp2452 View Post
    "You are trained in martial arts--"mixed" martial arts?"
    "Yes."
    "So why did you feel the need to shoot him?"
    "Because he's Tito Ortiz!"
    +1 LOL! That's one BAaaaaaad Man!

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