This is a discussion on Got in a fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by FIREARMZ Weapons retention is a serious matter, you are far more likely to be in a fist fight than a gun fight ...
The way I see it, some people just can't be saved from themselves.
Personally I am kind of surprised at the amount of people who think it is okey dokey to shoot unarmed people with no consequence. Well to each their own I guess.
Elderly, disabled people, force on numbers... I don't have a problem with that.
Regular, otherwise healthy, non-disabled people against a single person without a weapon, and you're gonna shoot them because in your mind, anyone who wants to fight is treatening your life, or because you could be killed by a single punch. Well good luck.
As stated in the original post, this guy just carried a grudge from something over eight years prior and wanted to slug him for it. He didn't say, "I'm gonna kill you" or "I'm gonna mess you up beyond all recognition" or any lethal threats... Basically he wanted to sucker punch him for some sort of retribution for some percieved wrong eight years ago.
Anyone ever watch COPS? How often do you see them fighting on the ground with someone who took a swing at them?
Why don't they just shoot every unarmed person who throws a punch or takes a swing at them?
By some peoples logic, they would be totally justified.
The cops don't shoot them because they know better! They know they aren't justified in just shooting a person who wants to fight. For whatever reason.
Well, why don't they just say: "But as a cop, I'm carrying a gun in plain view, I shot him because if he hit me and I got dizzy, they could have disarmed me and get my gun so I had to shoot him before that happened."
They don't say that, because they know it won't fly in court.
While the police are allowed to use the necessary amount of force to effect an arrest. They are still bound like the rest of us to only use deadly force under the same circumstances as the rest of us are. Which is in an immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury.
They may be fighting with a guy on the ground for 10 minutes but they are not gonna shoot the guy until the guy actually makes an attempt to go for the officers gun and get it from his holster or they in some other fashion disables the officer or starts to deliver blows that could render them unconscious.
As civilians, under law... we are not allowed to use necessary force to make an arrest. We are only allowed to use "equal force" for fend off an attack. Therefore if the person attacking you is not using deadly force against you, you are not allowed to use deadly force to repel the attack.
The law and the courts generally feel that an unarmed fight is not a lethal weapon. Now situations may change during the course of the fight to change the dynamics.... but until that happens... you are still in a fist fight with an unarmed person, generally considered as non-lethal.
You go into court and say I shot him because one time my uncle joes best friend was killed in a bar fight and he was only hit one time in the head isn't going to work in your defense.
The fact that it is remotely possible for someone to kill you with one punch is not enough reason for the courts to allow you to make the leap to assume it is going to happen to you if someone wants to fight you.
If your rational is something like: I've never been in a fight in my life, or I haven't been in a fight since high school and I don't want to fight someone and I'm afraid that a black eye may kill me, then I say good luck.
I hope things work out ok for you. I really do! Trust me... any ccw holder who shoots someone, I really do hope things work out for them! I mean that with all seriousness.
I just feel you may... and I say "MAY" be in for a surprise.
Good Luck, Stay Safe, and avoid situations where you can.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
I'm in the "carrying a gun doesn't make every fight a lethal encounter" camp.
It might evolve that way, but it isn't one out fo the gates.
Good point bark'n....
I always run through in my mind what I would do in a situation like that..
Is it better to just turn and run? Or engage in a fist fight and hope your weapon doesn't come out? Or use verbal skills to try to diffuse the situation? So many options and variables and when I am out and about I usually have my 5 little ones with me and that just complicates things too since running away is no good and engaging in a fight w/a 2yr old in a back pack carrier is not gonna be pretty...
Love the running knee! THat is very Wanderlie Silva-esque.
Tough place to be in. First you knew the guy and the attack was unexpected and unprovoked. I think you acted accordingly. Hindsight is always 20/20. The issue of shoot or don't shoot is dependant on whether you thought your life was in danger. There are lots of brawlers out there that can knock a person out with one punch. A punch can kill. Doesn't matter if your in top condition or poor health. You did what you had to do. Glad you didn't get hurt or worse.
Bad situation to be in, and it could go either way. My friend just got back from jury duty in a case in which a man shot his brother in law who was beating his son with an aluminum bat. This guy was charged with attempted murder because according to the DA a metal bat can't hurt you that badly. Some of the jurors agreed that being beat with a bat is no big deal. I can personally attest otherwise. Although the guy was found not guilty, any time you have to use a weapon expect the worst. You may live to prove what your innocence in court. (As a side note the attacker who got shot, a convicted felon was given immunity to testify against the man who shot him)
Laws generally don't demand you take it "like a man" simply because the first volley of the felonious attack is apparently non-lethal. Rather, they afford you the choice to decide when the threat is legitimate and to be feared, in your eyes, as justification for denying the attack. Only seeing and hearing what you do, in the heat of that moment, can it be judged that the risk has now crossed that ugly line to a lethal encounter. Of course, you'll need to justify it to the district attorney, the Grand Jury and possibly a jury of your "peers." Review the use-of-force laws that apply to you in your state.
I WIL NOT HESITATED to stop the treat
I carry OC spray, although i think you ended up doing very well :)
When I was in Berlin I saw a guy diffuse a fight really quickly. This was different than your situation bc he wasn't attacked first. He knew it was going to happen.
Three guys have one guy cornered to a wall outside of a bar. Obviously angry at him etc. They're speaking German (which I don't) and he's speaking English (which most any German their age will speak quite well).
So all he said was "before you do anything, I'm HIV positive"
They didn't wind up doing anything and just walked away and into another bar.
Ya' dun gud! Exactly like you should have. Just make sure you have a good holster. Maybe you should have taken him out after the first swing! but otherwise, fine job, didn't need the hardware, but by all means call LEO!
My interest in carrying concealed evolved when my health began to decline. I've been big, stout, and athletic most of my life, but now, my back is totally wrecked, I have bursitis in my hip, and my shoulder pops out when I miss with a punch.
I figure the concern about having my gun taken away is one of the risks. Everyone here seems to have a shoulda, woulda..... BS line. In an unexpected attack like the one described, just how fast are you gonna get to your OC, taser, rocket launcher, etc.?
I suggest everyone contact their state, county, and city authorities to find out how much force is allowed in each situation.
When I was rodeoing, part of my training was to watch tapes constantly. Evaluating body position and techniques REALLY stepped my game up. When I spent a year and a half in and out of casts on both wrists, I watched a LOT of tapes. I rode the crap out of the first bull I got on.
I'm not saying watching Steven Segal (hate that greasy *******) will teach you to walk in a room and break people's necks by looking at them, but there is PLENTY to be learned by observation.