Got in a fight while carrying - Page 5

Got in a fight while carrying

This is a discussion on Got in a fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm a fairly fit and strong 30 something, a paramedic and like others on this thread I,v been around the block. Recently while walking home ...

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  1. #61
    New Member Array tradhunter's Avatar
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    I'm a fairly fit and strong 30 something, a paramedic and like others on this thread I,v been around the block. Recently while walking home from work I was challenged and nearly attacked. I backed op onto the sidewalk ware I knew I would not be hit by a car, dropped my bag and keys and prepared to fight. This was enough to give the other guy pause and things just kinda plateaued there. This kid was no bigger than I was and my have seen the confident experience i had. However I,m really no fighter and can think of hundreds of guys I have met that would really strike terror in my heart in similar situations.

    If faced by a real badas that was unarmed I would (initially)not draw because of greater fear of the legal system. After reading this thread I think I need some pepper spray - and more training!


  2. #62
    New Member Array drjay's Avatar
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    http://www.buffalonian.com/hnews/onepunch.htm
    A blow from Lorgreen's bare fist caused a hemorrhage in Severson's head that is supposed to have resulted in almost instant death.
    http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...gle&id=5273162
    It may sound hard to believe but Hawaiian investigators say a Chapel Hill man was killed with one punch....Hawaii Police say Reuther was punched after he snapped a photograph of 21-year-old Less Schnabel, Jr. Reuther's mother says her son apologized and was putting the camera away when he was hit.
    http://www.north-wales.police.uk/en/...p?UID=6&CID=91
    I've investigated several incidents over the past years that have resulted in a person being killed with one punch.
    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/in...m?id=541212006
    A FORMER soldier who admitted killing a man with a single punch faces a prison sentence.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...ds/4139666.stm
    A grandfather killed the brother of Hollywood actress Deborah Kerr with a single punch after an "unutterably trivial" dispute, a court has heard.
    http://archive.thisisthenortheast.co.../7/7/7490.html
    A TEENAGER bragged to friends about knocking out a father-of-three who later died - only eight days after he was given an anti-social behaviour order.
    http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-e...name_page.html
    The family of a company director who was killed by a single punch last night spoke of the tragedy.
    http://www.shieldsgazette.com/cleado...ely.2957472.jp
    But trouble flared when a chip hit Kennedy's girlfriend, and, even though the group apologised, he felled Mr Windle with a single punch.

    The 26-year-old company director from Cleadon hit his head on
    railings as he fell, and later died in hospital.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...re/4296605.stm
    The family of a man who died after an assault outside a nightclub have joined with police to warn of the fatal dangers of throwing just one punch.
    http://www.honeycuttattorney.com/one_punch_murder
    The man accused of delivering the punch, Christopher Flores, 21, is standing trial for Audon Camarillo’s murder in Judge Letty Lopez’s 389th state District Court.
    http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-onlin...13610439.shtml
    One punch, one boy dead, another in jail.
    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/1999/...bar990129.html
    A jury has found a man guilty of manslaughter for punching a bar patron, who died after his skull cracked when he hit the ground.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...es/4487335.stm
    Mr Burns fell in August 2004 after being struck. He hit his head on the pavement and later died in hospital.


    Edited:
    Quote Originally Posted by sjp2452 View Post
    Here's how a prosecutor might approach you:

    "So you decide to protect yourself by carrying a gun?"

    "Yes."

    "How else do you protect yourself?"

    "I don't understand the question."

    "Well, carrying and using a gun in a confrontation is the ultimate fight stopper. What other method could you have employed to protect yourself and end the fight?"

    "Is it now my responsibility to learn martial arts? Is it now down to 'learn martial arts or risk dying in a fight'?"

    "Did you ever study any kind of martial arts?"

    "No, few people do. My lifestyle does not permit the time, energy, or money required to learn such a skill. There are many things in life I would *like* to do, but can't for whatever reason. More to the point though, is it my fault my schedule does not facilitate learning hand-to-hand in order to defend myself against a thug?"

    "If you had, wouldn't you have been able to defend yourself without resorting to firing your gun?"

    "Possibly, or I may have only been good enough to upset him even more. Imagine I land a few good punches and get him a bit bloodied, now he's even more upset. He sees my gun, uses his adrenaline rush to overpower me and screams 'Oh, you're going to die now.' What then? Would I be sitting here regretting having learned just enough to upset him, or regretting not having fired my weapon?"

    "So anytime you feel threatened, you're automatically going to draw and fire? "

    "That's a strawman argument and not how this played out. Of course I'm not going to fire at anyone who threatens me. I will do *everything* possible to get away, which the courts should realize I did. However, I will not put my life up to chance. There's no going back, there's no do-over. Besides the relatively rare one punch kills, this man was unprovoked and apparently just wanted to prove he was tough. This is the most dangerous fight you could get into because on his side it's not worth bragging about unless he did real damage. "Ooooh you knocked that guy out" is the 'praise' requested with such actions. Maybe I have a hard head and it takes a few kicks to accomplish that, maybe he doesn't know when to stop, maybe one kick is all it takes. These maybes are not me playing out scenarios that never happened, it's simply to put backing to what I said earlier...I will not put my life up to chance."

    "Didn't you have the choice whether or not to learn other methods of stopping a fight? Didn't you choose to carry a gun without knowing how to handle yourself in a fist fight? Didn't you choose to only have the most extreme option available to you for every altercation?"

    "As I previously mentioned I had the option of carrying a weapon available to me, or nothing at all. Obviously I'm going to defend myself with every resource available to me and just to say, if I was knocked down and found a stick near by I would pick it up too. Would you agree, just hypothetically, that maybe 1 in 1,000 fights result in serious bodily harm, not necessarily death?"

    "Possibly."

    "Ok, well that would be a 0.1% chance of being seriously harmed. To put that in perspective, according to the Georgia DMV there are 6.1 million licensed drivers and in 2004 there were 1,534 fatal accidents. This means of all the possible drivers on the road, you had a 0.025% chance of dying in a car accident in Georgia. This is a major fear of most people which is why we have crumple zones, crash standards, multi-stage airbags, seat belts, lengthy training, and other safety measures. To relate that back to my example, you would have to agree that only 1 in 4,000 fights result in seriously bodily harm for me not to be justified in doing whatever necessary to avoid it. Of course the real chances may be much higher. You chastised me for not knowing martial arts, thusly this thug should have had the same requirement. To give you an idea, if you watched MMA every Sunday, by these statistics, you would have to watch it for 77 years before seeing an injury.

    Otherwise when you're done here you would have to argue the merits of requiring seat belts."
    Too long to actually read, but that's my take.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Array DrLewall's Avatar
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    I read it and I applaud you..wish I could think like that and jot it down for others to read....lots of good points to think abt.

  4. #64
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    Hey guys... Just piping back in on this thread after earlier posts several pages back.

    I just want to point out a couple things to consider. Just to consider.

    There is absolutely NO Doubt that being hit one time can kill you! Examples are a-plenty! No denying that. If you feel you must shoot an otherwise unarmed attacker then Do What You Feel You Need To Do!

    I am certainly not advocating that you are or are not able to be rightously in fear of your life if someone who is unarmed picks a fight with you.

    All I want to point out is that you have to consider what the "moods of the court" feels about shooting unarmed individuals.

    Just be prepared to be financially ruined, loss of your job, your retirement savings, your house, your car, cash value of any insurance policies you have acrued and quite possibly your freedom in the battle of trying to defend why you chose to shoot an unarmed person.

    Hopefully you'll successfully be able to stay out of prison. Maybe your wife or girlfriend will even wait for you to be released if you are sent to the slammer.

    The moods of the courts are clear. At least in my neck of the woods. They don't take kindly to those who shoot unarmed people on the street. Even if the other guy was the aggressor.

    Certainly if you are "In fear of death or crippling injury", then you have to do what you have to do to survive and deal with the consequences later! No doubt about that. Does no good to be dead and then try to worry about what you should have done.

    Just know going into it what you face for lack of having other options than a gun on your hip to deal with situations.

    None of this is easy, and quite frankly, a lot of these "hypothetical" situations described in these types of forums border on absurd.

    It is extremely rare, (not unheard of), but extremely rare, where some total stranger out of the blue, comes up and wants to pick a fight with you where the situation doesn't afford you a variety of other options to use in either avoidance, or other less lethal means of diffusing the situation where it doesn't turn into a "killing" situation.

    Presenting a lot of unlikely and unrealistic "hypothetical" scenarios that are so rigid and guided that it drives people to think that all they have left to do is shoot someone, in my opinion, does little except create confusion and unrealistic set of circumstances for good people who are trying to figure out what to do.

    I've said before, there are hundreds if not thousands of good people doing hard prison time simply because they made a poor decision in the heat of the moment on something they "felt" they were on solid ground when they acted.

    Not only do we want to survive a potentially lethal encounter, but as the good guys, we want to stay out of prison too.

    Certainly, I am not saying anyone is wrong in their thoughts, and I will not try to interject myself in anyone's encounter with a felon. You are the one on the scene, not me.

    Remember, your best weapon is your brain. The time to second guess yourself is here and before you have a situation. Not during the moment of truth.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=30503

    Be aware, and Beware! Stay Safe! and Be Prepared!

    -regards friends.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #65
    New Member Array katipo's Avatar
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    In my case I'm pretty well chewed up with Rheumatoid Arthritis and don't run too well from feet being screwed up from it. Shooting the .45 is a pain since the right hand is bolloxed up as well. I have the disabled permitting for close in parking.

    One occasion a punk had me partially blocked in one of these disable parking slots at the local market street United. I mentioned that I needed out and he commenced to yapping about me taking this parking spot with the addendum from other more crippled folks and other discriptives about why folks like me should be hung with a new rope. He ended it with that he called the police and wanted to see them ticket me for the assumed mistake.

    Yes I was packing at the time, and retreated to a point where I can be safe from him and to wait for police arrival. I kept my mouth shut so's not to escalate the issue.

    Police arrived and miscreant started the mouthing off right away with cop. Policeman asked for ID which I presented both CCP and DL. Policeman had a noticable pause and said I sure kept my cool about it. Coming back from car told me that yes the disable permit was in fact mine and said he could handle this in a number of ways and asked me what I wished done.

    I told him to embassass the crap out of him.

    Policeman came up to grinning miscreant and placed him under arrest for endangering a disabled and told him it could be escalated to a hate crime charge since he targeted a specific protected group.
    The onlookers from the store applauded when cop cuffed him.

    H&H towing came out and removed offending vehicle.

    A federal DA called in the next week asking if I wished to pursue charges, since the man spent the weekend eating fried baloney and biskets and gravy. (Punishment enough in my book.) I declined and they released him for him to retreave his car out of impoundment.

    Never seen the miscreant again and hope not to.
    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?

  6. #66
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    katipo, that was great!I too have a disabled parking permit but I rarely use it...I try to let some of our "more disabled" folks have those spots...once in a while when I have trouble walking,I'll use it to try to park closer to the store or wherever....yea I get the stinkeye when I do,but I know those youngsters may be like me someday!

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    +1 to OC spray or a tazer

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Since when does a Man or Woman, armed with two hands and two feet and one head (I'll get to that in a minute) become "unarmed". They all have their body as a weapon.

    We recently had a case here in Greenville were a young gay man was killed with one blow as he was leaving a bar. It made national news because it was argued it was a hate crime. The assailant reportedly made some comment as to his sexual persuasion as he swung. The victim went down in a heap with one blow striking his head against the curb and died of severe head injury from the strike to the concrete. Was that perp unarmed?

    Just yesterday a woman in Greenville SC stabbed her long time live in boy friend in the neck. He died. It was determined she acted in self defense. What was the weapon he had? His head. He repeatedly head butted her until she was able to grab a knife from the kitchen drawer and stab him in the neck. He was attacking her with his head. A deadly weapon if used correctly.

    Not so simple an answer for a complicated question...

  9. #69
    Ex Member Array Travis Morgan's Avatar
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    Katipo,

    That was great! Thanks for the laugh! I hope they served that ****er powdered eggs 3 meals a day, every day. Those do a terrible job on your innards! No sooner could I finish a serving, than I'd get a half gallon sized gas bubble.

  10. #70
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    Katipo... Great story, great laugh and you handled yourself incredibly well.

    cphilip... absolutely correct! No simple answers for complicated situations.

    Which is why I stress, your legal education, tactical training and learning any other methods of defense you can, in order to add tools to your defensive toolbox is critical, and everybit as important, if not more so than to have a nice expensive gun and great gunhandling skills to the neglect of a sound mind and good tactics.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Thats why I carry a Gun, Emerson Karambit, OC, and a Black Hawk Gladius. FORCE CONTINIUM BABY!!!!
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  12. #72
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    Not so simple an answer for a complicated question...
    The point being, in the end it really is simple: everyone is armed, at all times, merely by still breathing and keeping one's wits. To someone either trained well enough or motivated enough, a great degree of damage can be caused by the head, hands, fingers, elbows, knees, feet, plus hard surfaces around you that can be used, plus any sharp or pointy objects you can find, plus ...
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  13. #73
    Member Array Hawk's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=sjp2452;464416] If you're young & fit and carry a gun but don't know anything about unarmed combatives, here's how a prosecutor might approach you:

    "So you decide to protect yourself by carrying a gun?"
    "Yes."
    "How else do you protect yourself?"
    "I don't understand the question."
    "Well, carrying and using a gun in a confrontation is the ultimate fight stopper. What other method could you have employed to protect yourself and end the fight?"
    "I'm not sure" (now you're dead)
    "Did you ever study any kind of martial arts?"
    "No."
    "If you had, wouldn't you have been able to defend yourself without resorting to firing your gun?"
    "I don't know."
    "So anytime you feel threatened, you're automatically going to draw and fire? "
    "I had no choice."
    "Didn't you have the choice whether or not to learn other methods of stopping a fight? Didn't you choose to carry a gun without knowing how to handle yourself in a fist fight? Didn't you choose to only have the most extreme option available to you for every altercation?"

    No offense, but that is ludicrous (guess there really isn't any way to not take offense to the comment ;-). Are you suggesting that a prosecuting attorney is going to cross-examine a defendant and attempt to make the point that the individual should have learned martial arts so that he could "humanely" incapacitate an assailant, just in case he was threatened?

    That is just one step away from:

    DA: Why did you leave your house today? Didn't you anticipate this could have happened? Obviously you did, you have a CCW. If you had just stayed home, the guy who attacked you would still be alive.

    No one has any responsibility to learn unarmed combat techniques, period. Hand to hand combat has the almost unavoidable side effect of emotional escalation. Adrenaline, anger, pain, all contribute to a situation that can quickly turn deadly or at the very least incredibly debilitating.

    Those of you who have "sparred" in class before may have gotten a VERY mild sense of that escalation, but likely have never felt the real effect. You have to also remember that there are TWO players in a hand-to-hand combat situation, and even if you remain calm and somewhat detached, you have no idea of what your opponent's capacity for rage induced decision making is.

    You are obligated (IMO) to bring a quick and resolute end to any physical confrontation that you feel (legitimately) places you in grave danger. This does not mean "taking a few licks" so the guy can get his aggression out and be done with it. It means:

    1. Get away as quickly as possible

    or

    2. End the conflict in the most certain way you can as quickly as possible.


    I would avoid the barracks attorney's advice on here and act with as much common sense and good judgement as possible. For those on here urging for some good ol' hand-to-hand I suggest you rent a Bruce Lee movie and get your fix there. Just my $.02.

  14. #74
    Member Array Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    Weapons retention is a serious matter, you are far more likely to be in a fist fight than a gun fight and many gun people (as some on this thread) assumes you can just shoot people, well gang you legally can't.


    Be very careful as to what you read and and believe here on the internet.
    I would suggest that your admonition to be careful as to what you believe on the internet also applies to your post. If you want solid legal advice, ask an attorney or better yet, a States Attorney or DA if you know one. Not your CCW instructor, not your local sherriff or LEO... and DEFINATELY not someone espousing his or her unvalidated personal interpretation of the law in an anonymous forum.

  15. #75
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I would suggest that your admonition to be careful as to what you believe on the internet also applies to your post. If you want solid legal advice, ask an attorney or better yet, a States Attorney or DA if you know one. Not your CCW instructor, not your local sherriff or LEO... and DEFINATELY not someone espousing his or her unvalidated personal interpretation of the law in an anonymous forum.
    And yours, my experience and qualifications are on my web site, and yours esquire?

    Oh by the way sherriff is spelled Sheriff and definately is spelled definitely.
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
    FIREARMZ FORUM

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