Got in a fight while carrying - Page 6

Got in a fight while carrying

This is a discussion on Got in a fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by FIREARMZ And yours, my experience and qualifications are on my web site, and yours esquire? Oh by the way sherriff is spelled ...

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Thread: Got in a fight while carrying

  1. #76
    Member Array Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    And yours, my experience and qualifications are on my web site, and yours esquire?

    Oh by the way sherriff is spelled Sheriff and definately is spelled definitely.
    Wow, your credentials are on a website, on the same internet you warned people to be wary of? Thanks for the spell-check, if that was supposed to be clever then you have certainly demonstrated that you are at least as useful as MS Word.

    With 20 years of experience in the use of firearms you might agree it is reckless in the extreme to think that someone can impart the full scope of their knowledge in a forum where the nuances of the law from state to state and the situations that people encounter are going to be too varied to speak to.

    Out of curiousity - do you suggest to your students that complete your firearms training that they are now capable of making legally sound decisions on when to employ the use of deadly force to stop and attack? If so, does your advice trend to the conservative side? Since your credentials don't include a stint as a SA or DA, it would seem to me that the best case scenario you could hope for as a result of your advice is that someone may be able to walk away from a dangerous situation unscathed. I think it is as likely that the sort of advice I have seen in this specific thread would lead someone to hesitate in a life or death situation and end up dead as they questioned whether their shoot was going to meet with a forum member's criteria for justifiable.

    My point remains the same, despite your 20 years of experience you are not going to be the one filing the charges. If a forum member wants to really get a feel for what the SA or DA is going to consider justifiable then they need to ask an SA or DA. If they want to know what level of force a good criminal defense attorney is going to be able to argue is justifiable, ask one. Getting general advice, delivered as canon, from a website of annonymous users is as reckless as offering the advice without at least qualifying the statement. Anyone who thinks they are capable of boiling down 50 states worth of statutes and nuances into a five sentence as to when to shoot is has got to be viewed as suspect.

    At the end of the day its the SA that's going to decide whether you are going to be charged or not. It is going to be a matter of interpretation and often personal predilections as to how a shooting is going to be handled. When that happens it is the defense attorney that is going to end up making the argument for innocence, not the barracks attorney that offered up their $.02.

    I wouldn't attempt to offer any advice as to when to shoot and when not to, simply because it isn't going to be up to me to defend someone else's actions, and I won't be making the decision as to whether or not to file charges. Unless you can offer up a "Don't Charge Me - I Took Ken's Course" certificate I doubt that you are suggesting to your students that they are going to be immune from the whims of a SA with a grudge against CCW holders or other "gun nuts". My best advice, and ultimately yours too I suspect, is to use common sense.

    I guess at the end of the day we won't hear any complaints from the guy that hesitated or second guessed his right to defend himself and got killed as a result though. That's handy isn't it?

    By the way - I can understand your need to post your credentials and background since it is relevant to advertising your business, I don't feel the same need. If that makes this post not worth reading that's your issue, not mine.


  2. #77
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    Well now, since this has kind of turned into a flaming post. I do post my credentials because of the business. I also have an attorney that teaches the legal sections of my classes. Yes if anyone takes a class everything we teach will be backed up with our presence in a court room if it has to be. We teach responsibility, responsibility for your actions. As for waiting and being dead, you can do everything text book perfect and still be dead, there are no guarantees in life. Everything that is legal is not necessarily right, and everything right is not necessarily legal. As you say sound judgment is required, we may not hear anything from the guy that hesitated and got killed, how ever we definitely will hear from the guy that did something stupid and is doing life or on death row because some one said :
    You are obligated (IMO) to bring a quick and resolute end to any physical confrontation that you feel (legitimately) places you in grave danger. This does not mean "taking a few licks" so the guy can get his aggression out and be done with it. It means:

    1. Get away as quickly as possible

    or

    2. End the conflict in the most certain way you can as quickly as possible

    "Legitimately" is as subjective as anything else posted on the internet and will vary from every one, every DA, every juror.

    So we can offer our own opinions and accept each outcome as it may be.
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
    FIREARMZ FORUM

  3. #78
    Member Array Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    Well now, since this has kind of turned into a flaming post. I do post my credentials because of the business. I also have an attorney that teaches the legal sections of my classes. Yes if anyone takes a class everything we teach will be backed up with our presence in a court room if it has to be.

    You are obligated (IMO) to bring a quick and resolute end to any physical confrontation that you feel (legitimately) places you in grave danger. This does not mean "taking a few licks" so the guy can get his aggression out and be done with it. It means:

    1. Get away as quickly as possible

    or

    2. End the conflict in the most certain way you can as quickly as possible

    "Legitimately" is as subjective as anything else posted on the internet and will vary from every one, every DA, every juror.

    So we can offer our own opinions and accept each outcome as it may be.
    I certainly did not intend to flame you. I simply assumed that you were in a sporting mood when you pointed out my typos and didn't want to dissappoint you.

    Hopefully my attempts (as unimportant as they may be) to offer you the benefit of the doubt with regard to your training courses and the type of guidance you provide were not completely lost in the post.

    On one issue I agree 100% - its up to the DA or SA. I qualified my statement with the word "legitimate" because in the very few states whose statutes I have had the time to review the wording left a tremendous amount of latitude for an aggressive SA to file charges. Conversely I believe the statutes also leave a lot of latitude for a grand jury or jury to see a shoot as justified. This is why I also suggested speaking with an attorney about the matter. I don't exempt myself from th advice that no one rely on a post in a forum as canon.

    No matter what though, I think we perhaps can also agree that it would be better to be alive and facing charges than it would to be dead and facing-up.

  4. #79
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    I agree better to be facing charges than dead, unless I knew that I had done something grossly wrong and have a great chance of being incarcerated for life or on death row, then I may take dead, having worked in State Corrections and having first hand knowledge about what goes on.

    I still have to stand by what I said, you simply cannot go around shooting people because they hit you regardless of how in danger you felt. Lots of things come into play, disparity of force issues, lack of weapons and yes as bad as it may seem the demographics and political environment in which you are in. Your gun simply is not the answer for every situation.

    The bottom line is each and everyone of us will have to accept the responsibility of our own actions. I do somethings I would never tell a student to do for liability purposes, yes liability is real today, very real. Self defense situations are fast and dynamic, you must be able to read the developing environment and see what is happening then act or react to those situations, split second decisions.
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
    FIREARMZ FORUM

  5. #80
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Those who are looking for some sort of "gurantee" that they won't get in trouble for doing what they do, are in the wrong club!
    Damn not again, always hangin out with the wrong folks


    not
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  6. #81
    Senior Member Array Scot Van's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Morgan View Post
    I have to call BS on that. Several times, I've ended up in a fight, and pulled some kinda Kung Fu move I'd never practiced or intended on using, only to realise later that I'd seen it in some movie.

    When I was rodeoing, part of my training was to watch tapes constantly. Evaluating body position and techniques REALLY stepped my game up. When I spent a year and a half in and out of casts on both wrists, I watched a LOT of tapes. I rode the crap out of the first bull I got on.

    I'm not saying watching Steven Segal (hate that greasy *******) <--

    will teach you to walk in a room and break people's necks by looking at them, but there is PLENTY to be learned by observation.
    Well put, and funny, too.
    A man in the hands of his enemies is flesh, and shudderingly vulnerable. - author unknown

  7. #82
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjay View Post
    "Did you ever study any kind of martial arts?"
    My responce would be "Are you saying because I am Asian I should be some kind of king Fu expert? "

    Oh please God let the persecutor ask me that question That would make him dumber than Tim Higgins the local hick persecutor
    Last edited by LongRider; October 10th, 2007 at 07:53 AM.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I personally don't have all the details worked out, regarding what I would do. Congratulations on laying this guy out after he had the chance to sucker punch you and you got away from it!

    Was there any surveillance video of the front of the store, that you can have the police get hold of, to prove that you were swung on unprovoked? I would try to get that pronto, if it exists.

    There is a huge unknown area there, with regard to a guy who approaches with "only" fists, because of the disparity of force between his unarmedness and your gun. If you were to drop back, draw, and possibly fire, almost everyone would look at you like you were the bad guy, who overreacted, and who should've just allowed himself to take a few lumps or something. Never mind the fact that if you did so, your gun could tumble out or get found in a struggle and used against you by this nutjob. So it's a difficult situation to be in.

    Let's not forget that PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM A SINGLE PUNCH to the head, and it's happened a number of times that I can recall just in my area alone. (One guy fell backward from the punch, cracked his head on the ground, went into a coma and then died.) So the argument can be made that you are justified in responding to bare-handed violence using your gun because bare-handed violence can indeed be deadly. Aren't hands and feet the "weapons" used in a huge proportion of homicides annually? One is not "safe" just because he's "only" using his fists. My feeling is that if someone brings you violence unprovoked, you should be justified in treating it as violence that could be intended to end your life, because you will have no way of knowing. But unfortunately, the law seems pretty backward in this regard.
    Are you talking about the guy that punched the guy in the head at the movie theater? And killed him?

  9. #84
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    I for one want to say you did everything right.

    And we all need to remember that weightier or not we used a firearm correctly will be judged later by that area’s DA. And if your use of a firearm was found in error, in Florida not only would you be a convicted felon, and never allowed to own a firearm again, but any misuse of a firearm requires a minimum of three year sentence.

    Under Florida law, with exception of being on your own property, or your place of business, you only have the right to use lethal force to counter deadly force. Under all other circumstances, we are required to make “every attempt” to run away.


    No two scenarios are alike and I have one for you from just last year.

    After the Florida Georgia football game in Jacksonville FL a young University of Florida student was killed by a three drunk Georgia fans by just a few blows to the head.

    They did not use a lethal weapon but there were three of them, and they would not let the deceased get away.

    So, I have a question for this blog.

    When is it acceptable to draw your weapon to defend yourself, when you advisory are only using his hands?

  10. #85
    Distinguished Member Array airslot's Avatar
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    "The fight will NOT be the way you WANT, the fight will be the way it IS.
    You MUST be FLEXIBLE enough to ADAPT " -unknown

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I personally don't have all the details worked out, regarding what I would do. Congratulations on laying this guy out after he had the chance to sucker punch you and you got away from it!

    Was there any surveillance video of the front of the store, that you can have the police get hold of, to prove that you were swung on unprovoked? I would try to get that pronto, if it exists.

    There is a huge unknown area there, with regard to a guy who approaches with "only" fists, because of the disparity of force between his unarmedness and your gun. If you were to drop back, draw, and possibly fire, almost everyone would look at you like you were the bad guy, who overreacted, and who should've just allowed himself to take a few lumps or something. Never mind the fact that if you did so, your gun could tumble out or get found in a struggle and used against you by this nutjob. So it's a difficult situation to be in.

    Let's not forget that PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM A SINGLE PUNCH to the head, and it's happened a number of times that I can recall just in my area alone. (One guy fell backward from the punch, cracked his head on the ground, went into a coma and then died.) So the argument can be made that you are justified in responding to bare-handed violence using your gun because bare-handed violence can indeed be deadly. Aren't hands and feet the "weapons" used in a huge proportion of homicides annually? One is not "safe" just because he's "only" using his fists. My feeling is that if someone brings you violence unprovoked, you should be justified in treating it as violence that could be intended to end your life, because you will have no way of knowing. But unfortunately, the law seems pretty backward in this regard.
    All situations are different. I am 71 with a handicap license due to an arthritic spine, and an abdominal aortic aneurysm. Less than a week ago I had a guy threaten to beat the sheet out of me. He was 30 years younger, 6' 3" and weighed around 350 pounds. Somehow I don't think I would have had a difficult time convincing anyone I felt my life was in danger.

    Fortunately the threat was over the phone.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by joleary223 View Post
    +1
    OC or pepper spray gives you options. If you spray someone and they keep comming you have shown the DA that you tried not to kill them. http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/sprays.htm
    Is pepper spray legal everywhere? I really don't know!

    I know in my state CCWL mean gun only, not a knife, brass nucks, etc but I don't know about pepper spray.

  13. #88
    Senior Member Array mojust's Avatar
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    You did the right thing. Be sure and point your toe when you knee somebody so you don't mess up your kneecap.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAExplorer View Post
    I carry a hamered revo... it's possible that a rumble could lead to the hamer being hit hard enough for a discharge.
    No, it isn't if you are carrying a modern double action revolver with a hammer block or transfer bar safety (pretty much all of them).

  15. #90
    Ex Member Array Joe R's Avatar
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    By law I have to try to avoid any confrontation. So that is what I will do.

    If pursued, I will not let things get to physical contact. I am virtually blind if I lose my glasses and that is the first thing that will happen if my assailant lands one in the face. I'm pretty sure I can get my visual health records admitted into evidence.

    So therefore, chemical weapons will be the second option after retreat/avoidance. If that doesn't work, a gun will come out and the fight will cease one way or another.

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