This is a discussion on Got in a fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What about if you had some sort of pepper/oc spray would you be able to use that and not get into to much trouble? I ...
What about if you had some sort of pepper/oc spray would you be able to use that and not get into to much trouble? I was thinking about carrying some made by a company called FOX sprays.
I'm 43 and have a back that gets out of wack if I move the wrong way, very high cholesterol (enough so that one doctor told me I am an emergency waiting to happen), and have a hernia.
There is no way that I am going to get physical with anyone who is not visibly in worse shape that I am. Once the attack starts then I would draw my weapon and warn off the attacker. If the attack continues then I will defend myself.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
NRA Life Member
Well then, that was a long read.
First off, PAExplorer good job, and you were VERY lucky.
I agree with all that go with the "Check all of your own states rules, statutes, and laws (and I do mean ALL - CO has several statutes on the subject), and either consult a defense lawyer, or the DA/SA. Unfortunately every city, county is going to have a different DA, so views are going to be radically different on how they treat the situation.
Some states have a "Retreat to the wall" law, other states don't.
Personally I do everything I can to defuse a situation and/or avoid a fight. So far so good. Several times when I have been out with my wife and some Billy-Bad-Ass choses to start something, I ended it by looking at my wife and saying "We got bail money?" to which she replies "Yup."
Honestly, I never considered the option of using my weapon in a physical confrontation. I suspect that I will do what I have always done if I see it coming. I got my CCW for work related conditions, gang problems (car jackings, muggings...), illegal immigrant problems (robberies, gangs again), and the very remote possibility of being in the wrong place at the wrong time mass shooting event.
Getting jumped/blind sided is a whole 'nother story. Presuming I still have my senses;
1. I am most likely going to draw aim and back step if possible and see how the attacker(s) is going to respond.
2. If I see a weapon of any sort, bang.
3. If the attacker(s) continue to advance, bang to the one I feel is the next biggest threat, and on to the next the whole time still back stepping if possible praying to those that listen that someone has dialed 911.
S I P D E
Scan, Identify, Predict, Decide, Execute.
At least this is what I tell myself what I am going to do. Real life...Never been in the situation, so who knows.
The way the Coast Guard tell us: When we are on duty and carrying, if we feel the threat is imminent then we have a right to react. We can only react with the same or lesser force. That being said, I am not a big guy (5'8" 170), and if I see someone much larger than me charging me when they see I am carrying, then I might make the decision to shoot, if they don't respond to my commands to cease/stop. When I get my CCW, I will have to make that judgement if/when the situation arises. I can only hope it never does.
We had a lawyer teach the first half of our Handgun safety class- his take on the matter was that you should not assume the law will side with you automatically if you shoot an unarmed assailant. how justified you were is up to interpretation.
Are you a young, lone male in good health? That's excessive force, you could go to jail. What if you had a baby/toddler with you? You could argue that you were protecting someone... Female, disabled or retiree? You could probably get away with it. It would depend on how the facts are interpreted/spun in court.
Keep in mind that, even if you are deemed justified in the criminal case, what about the civil case afterward when the BG's family sues you? They only have to prove you 51% guilty instead of beyond a reasonable doubt. Plus if they're part of a gang, you've got gang members looking for retribution...
Fearing for your life is fearing for your life, but good luck persuading a jury that a drunk/angry guy taking a swing at you is as potentially lethal as your handgun. Just my opinion.
I'm not much of a hand-to-hand type, and have been in very few fights as an adult. However, not every person who throws a punch or shoves you needs to be shot. Morally and legally, you had better have darn good reason to think that your life is truly in danger.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
Thank God I live in Texas...
Sec. 22.01. Assault.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or
(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.
Sec. 9.04. Threats as Justifiable Force.
The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
Sec. 9.22. Necessity.
Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;
Sec. 9.31. Self-Defense.
(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.
Sorry for the long strand. In Texas it is perfectly legal to draw a weapon to attempt to avoid an altercation. If, God forbid, it escalated from there, the Grand Jury would have to decide, but once the pistol is drawn, the person warned that you are in fear of bodily harm and that force will be used to prevent that, it would be in his hands...
One of the first test of chl in TX a man was being hit by a man after a fender bender . The man was traped in his car and being hit by a larger man pulled his gun and took the BG out.
It was ruled a good shoot.
Berney, you are still going to be at the mercy of a jury, Texas or not. And, depending on your net worth, you may be a juicy plum for a trial lawyer who, for instance, only needs to create a doubt about your drawn, and warning, weapon being SEEN by the BG before you drill him.
Shooting people is a last resort. Staying out of bars, dark alleys, congregatations of people who don't agree with you, and driving carefully will avoid 99% of possible encounters. Most cops get through their careers without drawing a weapon. It can't be that hard for us.
Shooting somebody is not my last resort. My last resort is not doing anything and dying. My second to last resort is to become involved in a physical altercation while carrying. The chance of my weapon becoming exposed during the fight and escalating matters while I am not in control of my CCW is absolutely not an option. I WILL NOT, and never will get in a fist fight while I am carrying. I will apologize, I will back down, I will walk/run away if the option is there. I will avoid the situation if at all possible, and I have never drawn my gun(except to clear my home when hearing strange noises), and hope I never have to. All I'm saying is the OP, obviously had no choice in the matter. He didn't get the option to sit down over a cup of coffee and discuss their differences. He handled the situation exceptionally well, unless the flying knee didn't work, and then we probably would have heard about it on the news instead of getting the story from him. "Breaking News: CCW used to commit murder after CCL was beaten and disarmed, etc"
And to clarify what I said, I believe drawing with the intent to show that deadly force will be used if the assailant does not cease his unwarranted attack would be enough to de-escalate(sp?) the situation...
PAExplorer you ask "If someone puts up their dukes and you can't get away, do you just partake in a good old fashion fist fight?" In my opinion if someone wants to fight I'm not going to take a butt whooping or chance getting cut. I don't think anyone should have to, be that a cop or a 250 lb tough guy. There is just to much disease out there to risk getting someone else's blood in a cut on your body. BUT in the case described the only thing I think you could have done better was perhaps to draw more attention to the fact you didn't want to fight. Granted you probably really didn't have enough time but if you can shout it loudly that you DON'T WANT TO FIGHT and to STOP. If you have time let everyone know within hearing range that you don't want to shoot but only if your sure he is not armed. Hopefully this will help protect you from a judge and jury and some over zealous DA. Get all the SYMPATHY from the crowd that time allows for. I'm too old & fat to run. I'd like to think I could still handle myself in a fight but it is just not practical and I know I wouldn't last long. If there is not time for any of that just shoot and let the chips fall where they may. I found that since I started carrying I could resist getting in fisticuffs much easier just because the chance of it escalating to a shooting were too high. Good luck in the future, I think you handled yourself well.
Life member NRA since 1983
I carry a Colt Delta Elite 10mm in Milt Sparks VM2 with 2 extra magazines on my belt. This is normally worn on a belt under my bib overalls and works great for me. My wife carries a Walther PPS .40 w/Crossbreed holster.