Less Than Lethal Attack
This is a discussion on Less Than Lethal Attack within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; BigEfan has a good point. You don't know it's less than lethal until the fights over.
Years ago the news had a story about a ...
August 27th, 2007 05:58 PM
BigEfan has a good point. You don't know it's less than lethal until the fights over.
Years ago the news had a story about a couple coach's over kids teams with some sport - or maybe a parent and a coach - got into a fight and one beat the other to death - no weapons - bare handed both of them.
For God, Family and Country!
August 27th, 2007 05:58 PM
August 27th, 2007 06:17 PM
This is easier for me than some...I'm a pretty easy going 60 year old. I wasn't always that way...but slow muscles, some 'inner appliances' removed, and weak joints makes disparity of force pretty obvious. If I am cornered by a wacko, someone is going to get OC'd, or worse. I don't want a fight, I will seldom argue any more, I can ignore a lot...but threathen me or touch me and I will react...
My life, and the health and welfare of those dear to me, will NOT be threatened...if I cannot escape, you have left me no choice...someone's going to need a cremation application, hopefully, it won't be me or mine.
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
August 27th, 2007 07:54 PM
I was considering any unarmed attack by a single person, of relatively the same size, as less than lethal, based on what others at this forum have advised.
Originally Posted by BigEFan
Quite a few posters are adamant about not introducing a gun into a fist fight, but they finish up that opinion with "Get more training so you can win a fist fight too".
Training's good, but it's no guarantee. I seen a championship blackbelt get one-punched in a bar fight. (The Flaming Mug- Fayetteville N.C. Anyone else been there?)
So if you meet the wrong guy, on the wrong day, how much of a beating do you have to endure?
All of it, until it becomes lethal?
None of it, and escalate it to a deadly force encounter, and all the legal risks that go along?
Just some of it until it's obvious they are not going to stop without causing you serious injury?
August 27th, 2007 08:11 PM
any fight I would be in has a gun in it already...
I don't fist fight - against Dr's orders, I hope I dissed him real good, cause he may be getting ventilated if he pushes after I apologize and try to leave....
August 28th, 2007 12:14 AM
This is one of the scenarios that scares me.....not so much from a fear of injury or actaully having to use my gun, but from a legal standpoint. Yeah you never know when it could turn lethal in a "non-lethal" encounter, but all I keep thinking about is what the prosecutor is going to tell/show the jury: The defendant(me) was attacked, and he pulled out his gun, and shot and killed the man(or testimony from witnesses) Then he shows the conditions stated by law that must be met before lethal force can be used. None of the jurors were there, all they are going to hear is that I was getting beat on and decided to kill the SOB and he wasn't armed. Then I go to jail.
Granted some fellas here might be getting on in age or have some physical conditions that limit their ability to survive an encounter like this, but for me its different. I'm 6'4" and 240.......and given that, I still wouldn't want to get into a fist fight, no matter what. My size might make a BG think twice in some instances, but it doesn't mean I know how to fight any better than the next guy. The jury would take one look at me and say "that dude is big enough he could have taken care of himself in this instance, he had no business using his gun". That is pretty strong incentive for me to keep it holstered until my life is really in danger. But in the heat of the moment, I hope I can make that decision rationally.
August 28th, 2007 03:36 AM
That u tube's been around for about 2 yrs. Something in a claiber that starts with at least 4. Over 300 pounds! BTW - white dude was knocked out but with no meaningful injuries.
Initial scenario --
*sudden, unprovoked, close in, violent attack with any disparity of force by unknown person --> probably shoot
* same, but without force disparity --> POSSIBLY shoot
I believe the operable phrase is something like '' reasonable chance of death or grave bodily harm."
August 28th, 2007 07:47 AM
Massad Ayoob has phrased it this way:
Originally Posted by riverkeeper
"Justified use of lethal force requires that the innocent be in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm."
By that standard, IMO, the innocent lady being knifed (in another recent threat) was justifiably protected by a good sam, and "sam's" cuplability in harming the murderous assailant should be nil. I'd like to think that any reasonable group of people on a Grand Jury would see it the same way.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
August 28th, 2007 01:25 PM
As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a less than lethal attack until after it's all over and no one is dead. I've had MANY years of multiple styles of martial arts training, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stand toe to toe with someone who is actively trying to pound me into the ground. I treat ALL attacks as potentially lethal.
"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
-The Mist (2007)
August 28th, 2007 04:50 PM
I have to admit after watching that video, had I been the victim I would have probably dropped the woman with a square punch as soon as she touched me. At that point that guy should have known it was going down and going down fast. He failed to preact and never had the chance to react.
I have no complex when it comes to either sex in a fight. I have known plenty of women who can be more dangerous and vicious then men. In this case, it was only obviously worse once the big towering boyfriend came strolling in.
I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.
August 28th, 2007 05:05 PM
Two people have been killed within the past year here in MN by a single blow. Who says not having a weapon makes them less than lethal? You don't have to perceive death from the attack, great bodily harm will do too.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
August 28th, 2007 06:15 PM
GEO2020....."Training's good, but it's no guarantee. I seen a championship blackbelt get one-punched in a bar fight. (The Flaming Mug- Fayetteville N.C. Anyone else been there?)"
Been there for many of the DARE to BARE nights. Not the MUG anymore. Forget what it is called now but definatly not the same.
August 28th, 2007 11:46 PM
Disparity of Force laws are usually fairly clear. Size, numbers or implement. In this specific case, size was a definite factor. However, so was the mind set of the victim. He ended up on the floor because he took his eyes off of the threat. He should have been watching so he could duck the punch & stomp that fat slobs knee cap.
As far as empty hand training, only an idiot goes toe-to-toe with an assailant, in a "fair fight" regardless of any training. People who survive violent confrontations like the one in the video do so either by luck or by stacking the deck in their favor & fighting dirty... as dirty as possible. Holding a black belt ranking has little if anything to do with how well someone can comport themselves in a street fight. I've known men without any formal training who were lethal. I've known dojo clowns who looked great sparring & in competition but would freeze on the street.
Something else about this particular scenario: there are a half-dozen innocents inside that store. In close proximity if he were to draw a weapon & a wrestling match ensued, who ends up with the gun? Are we counting on a one shot stop here? He also may end up with two targets. If he's wrestling with the guy the girlfreinds isn't likely to stand idly by. She just doesn't seem like the type.
No weapon solves every problem. Two things happen if you guess wrong or are unprepared. You get sued or you get maimed or die.
August 29th, 2007 02:35 AM
I am a woman....not a spring chick....and disabled. I would have to shoot him until the threat was stopped. Desparity of Force would be my defense.
A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
Susan B. Anthony
A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
August 29th, 2007 06:42 AM
You are attacked by an unarmed assailant. The reason doesn't matter for this question.... you looked at his girl, he thought you disrespected him, wrong place at the wrong time, etc.
You are now being attacked by an unarmed man, not significantly bigger, who shows no sign of relenting.
The attack, as far as you can tell, is less than lethal, but you can't stop it.
Do you draw? Is that legal?
(now some of you may have to really stretch the old imagination to consider someone actually able to beat you up hehe)
Using your words and not getting out of context from the original post:
Unarmed assailant: NO you also said not significantly bigger, so we are still at NO. The attack as far as you can tell is less lethal, again NO.
Then we get to the you canít stop it, well if it continues to the point that you are going unconscious, a severe injury occurs and he continues to pommel you, then the threat to life or severe bodily harm has significantly increased.
If he is significantly younger, say your 70 and he is 35 the disparity of force has given you the right to use more force so then yes. If you have a special medical problem that could lead to your demise or significant injury resulting from a good ass whipping then you may use more force.
Disparity of force is obviously important:
Younger vs significantly older
Male vs female
Numbers against an individual
Significant size difference
Able bodies vs disabled
Known to you in ADVANCE to possess a degree in some form of professional skill, martial arts, boxing and so forth
August 29th, 2007 11:56 AM
I guess in simpler terms my question boils down to, an unarmed attack where there is no disparity of force.
Originally Posted by FIREARMZ
How much of a beat-down should a person be expected to take before drawing a weapon would be warranted?
1. All of it.
2. None of it.
3. Or some of it, until it's clear you can't control the attack.
The scenario should be the same for the old man, female, or diasbled. NO DISAPRITY OF FORCE. I realize it is unlikely to be attacked by a heart patient, but I was hoping to get input from the highly trained on the board, who normally answer with their H2H expertise will end the situation. All of us here have seen highly trained fighters meet their match on occasion. Imagine this is one of those occasions. (and claiming that if you are losing, the attacker must be a highly trained martial artist, so disparity of force is presumed is not fair hehe)
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