August 27th, 2007 01:26 AM
Less Than Lethal Attack
You are attacked by an unarmed assailant. The reason doesn't matter for this question.... you looked at his girl, he thought you disrespected him, wrong place at the wrong time, etc.
You are now being attacked by an unarmed man, not significantly bigger, who shows no sign of relenting.
The attack, as far as you can tell, is less than lethal, but you can't stop it.
Do you draw? Is that legal?
(now some of you may have to really stretch the old imagination to consider someone actually able to beat you up hehe)
August 27th, 2007 02:15 AM
Situational, but I won't rule out the ol' "Ace in the Hole" if it keeps me from being hospitalized.
I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.
August 27th, 2007 06:20 AM
You mean something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIuG3HvV0Y I would have to defend myself. If the guy scared me enough and there was real fear of harm, I would shoot.
Last edited by joleary223; August 27th, 2007 at 08:07 AM.
CRIME..... LAW DEFINES, POLICE ENFORCE, CITIZENS PREVENT!
FOUR BOXES KEEP US FREE:  SOAP  BALLOT  JURY  AMMO!
August 27th, 2007 07:11 AM
Life is pretty simple. So is defending it, mostly. This isn't rocket science. The only difficulty lies in understanding the shades of gray reflected in the laws that apply to you. Figure that out, then you know where the "line" is.
Can't ever know for certain. Unless one prefers a life of always, always being behind the "curve" in such attacks, one must assume: armed, like as not. I choose not to be, simply out of common sense.
Originally Posted by Geo2020
Who is to say it's less than lethal? Or, when it's less than lethal? Or, when it will become deadly? The thing is, a physical attack can quite literally turn on a dime. I've had it turn on me. I've turned the tables one one occasion, myself, dramatically so. Anyone who believes fisticuffs are limited in scope by definition simply hasn't lived very long or seen many things. Such situations can turn deadly in an instant. And in that instant, it's suddenly too late to decide to defend yourself. No place in this country (USA) demands you wait that long, to the point where it's not possible to stop an attack. No place (here at least) is that barbaric.
The attack, as far as you can tell, is less than lethal, but you can't stop it. Do you draw? Is that legal?
I can't stop it, physically? Then, I'd be a fool to assume it'll stop of its own accord, or via a lightning bolt from the sky. The instant I see that reality, that his violence cannot be stopped by unarmed means, then the attack has gone beyond the reasonable and rational ... it has gone to the point of threatening my life. Toss into the mix that I have a serious physical disability that limits the degree of attack I might withstand as well as precludes running away, any alternative options I might have will quickly disappear.
At the moment I have a reasonable fear for my life, the law (at least in the mostly-sane and -rational state of Oregon) supports my ability to defend myself to the degree necessary to stop the attack. If in reasonable fear for my life, that includes the use of deadly force. As it should be.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
August 27th, 2007 10:10 AM
Oh, I know guys who can whip my butt- point being, if I'm not able to avoid or de-escalate, it is a "lethally potential assault", and disparity of force allows a draw.
Originally Posted by Geo2020
If a guy my own size, who doesn't have greater training, is whipping me, I will have the advantage, unless he is willing to kill or maim as well.
August 27th, 2007 11:52 AM
What's the saying - it's not the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog?
I'm a big guy and have several years of Martial Arts training. I KNOW there are smaller guys that can wup my butt as well as some bigger that I could wup theirs. You really don't know who can wup who until it happens.
After my neck surgery and restrictions of what I cannot do (don't want to risk being paralyzed) one of my doctors (Army Doc) said if someone wants to fight and won't back down - shoot em!
For God, Family and Country!
August 27th, 2007 12:17 PM
I'm with ArmyCop. I have three open vertebrae in my neck. I enjoy walking. If I can't get clear quick, it's time to draw.
August 27th, 2007 12:24 PM
i have a question. what if you were one of the 7 guys in the store? do you draw to save the person? you can clearly see that he is not able to defend himself. the person was charged with a felony. so the law states to prevent or stop a felony.
i take blood thinners, and if a person was to hit me in the head like that i would probably die. i could not take a beating like that. i would die.
August 27th, 2007 12:29 PM
I guess it has been drummed into my head that a fire arm is not a suitable response to a less than lethal attack.
Originally Posted by ArmyCop
Most of the posters who are adamant about this, respond with the various skills and training they have that will allow them to handle an unarmed aggressor.
For example the most common advice is something like, "if you are worried about a less than lethal attack, you should have more training to respond in a less than lethal manner". Followed by, I would wrist-lock, Hammer Blow, crush solar plexus, etc. etc.
I would like to know who much of a less than lethal attack should be endured, before drawing your weapon is warranted (if ever).
Nice carry gun BTW
August 27th, 2007 12:40 PM
At my age now (62) I know darned well my defensive skills physically are way down from even 20 years ago. Stamina is well reduced too.
I can deal with an initial ''explosive'' phase where I let loose with everything but - sad to say that 'eveything' won't last me long at all. If that does not end things fast I'd have little choice but to consider more options - ergo my gun, if genuinely fearing for my life and safety. It would be all I had left.
This all assumes I should have added, that I couldn't hightail it away from the area ....... but then too my running itself is probably not up to snuff for max speed any more.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
August 27th, 2007 01:25 PM
Re: YouTube attack
Personally, there is no way I could just stand there and watch. There is just too much chance of serious injury resulting - even from a fist fight. That then raises, the question, what is the best way to intervene? Drawing and firing is definitely out. The law states you can prevent a felony, but remember, it did not become a felony until he kept beating him. I would act before it got to that stage. Drawing and challenging is a possibility. I know there is often a debate, about 'don't draw unless you intend to fire,' but there are many instances where drawing has stopped an encounter. The BG beating the other man definitely shows he already has intent to do harm, and is not just mouthing off.
Originally Posted by *SA-XD4ME*
Perhaps the best option is to have a non-lethal means of defense. I carry an ASP Defender (pepperspray keychain). I think I would spray him w/o any warning. He is already causing injury to a person. Since PS is non-lethal, I don't think there is a need to challenge/command him to stop. There is a potential problem with PS though. My CCW instructor (who recommended we purchase an non-lethal means of defense to supplement a gun) said one blast would clear the room we were in (which was much larger than the pizza lobby). That in itself is not bad, but what if it begins to affect me? I don't want to hinder my ability to continue to defend myself.
I think this is a very good scenario to discuss. Maybe start a new thread using this video??
August 27th, 2007 03:20 PM
i like your pepper spray idea. I guess i need to go get some, because i wouldn't want to shoot this guy but the truth is he scares me.
do what you can with what you have where you are at (theodore roosevelt)
August 27th, 2007 03:55 PM
I don't quite understand how you consider him or them less lethal. People have been known to beat people to death. I would draw and let him make his choice. Again this is where if I go to trial the officers involved get the 20 questions about what would they do and the truth is they would have shot if that is what they felt they had to do.
Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!
"Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell
August 27th, 2007 04:26 PM
please stop, you are scaring me, bangbang, bang
To those that paid for my freedom,
I WILL NEVER FORGET.
As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.
August 27th, 2007 04:44 PM
from my post i started because of this thread.
I would have left as soon as that crazy woman started in. There are other places to eat. As soon as she spit I would have left and called the cops.
I will not be trapped liked this. This video opened my eyes to a couple places that I frequent.
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