June 7th, 2005 08:14 PM
Defending your vehicle????
Hi, not sure this is a good title for this thread but I have a question that I have been pondering for a while and would love to have your input.
Here is the situation.
You are carrying, shopping at a local store. When you come out you find someone trying to break into your vehicle and they do not leave when you stop them. Now under normal circumstances you can't pull your weapon to stop the break in. No bodily harm. However you are on your way to a local Range to do some shooting and you have extra weapons (guns) in your vehicle. They may or may not be locked in a safe or just in a concealed bag. (I am not looking at the pro/cons of having extra guns in the vehicle (locked or unlocked) that is another topic of discusion) Do you use your weapon to prevent the theft of the other guns?
Or just let then procede with stealing your vehicle/guns and report the loss to the local police when they do show up?
I would hate to know I let a gun get into the wrong hands but where do you draw the line? I know "what ifs" are tricky and there can be many variables but if we plan ahead it will make the decision tht much easier if it happens.
Thanks for your input. And yes, my second question, hope it is better then the first (grin).
June 7th, 2005 08:23 PM
It's all in the articulation...
June 7th, 2005 08:41 PM
I would say let em go, get a good decription , direction of travel ect. LEO's are trained to only shoot in defense of selves or others. Or only if the susupect is considered to cause much more harm if not immediately arrested. Most states do not allow the use of deadly force in defense of property.
June 7th, 2005 08:43 PM
Actually this is would depend on your state. In some places you can use force to stop a felony, in others you cannot.
Depending on where you live and where the car is situated, it might be possible.
I dare say though, that in most circumstances, when the you yell at the BG's, they will amlsot always flee, or threaten you. It is possible they will calmly go about stealing your car, while you stand there on your cell phone giving their descriptions to 911, but I doubt it.
June 7th, 2005 09:33 PM
Agree with GoodSamaritan....in Texas, you can use deadly force to stop a felony in progress. And I too believe that unless the BG is really out there in lala land, he/she's either gonna flee or fight. Now, here, you'd likely already have your weapon pulled as you approach and the yelling begins, so, if the BG flees then, you've done your job, protected your property, nobody got killed and you can call it in.
"Endeavor To Persevere"
Chief Dan George
June 7th, 2005 10:06 PM
Prospector, unfortunately here in Michigan, castle doctrine only applies to the house, can't wait till we can get the same as Florida. If I am lucky I will still be alive when that happens.
I agree with everything that is posted, have a cell phone and will be on it but it was just a thought that crosses my mind as I have extra guns in my vehicle everyday as I shoot at lunch. The Kimber is locked up in a Lifeguard mounted to the vehicle. Guess I will have to get one for the Beretta as well.
Thanks for the input. Now just have to pray it never happens to me or anyone else.
June 7th, 2005 10:51 PM
I'm looking at this bit almost word by word. ''Trying'' to break in - so not succeeded so far? ''Do not leave when you stop them'' - does that mean ''try'' and stop them? Instance verbal challenge?
When you come out you find someone trying to break into your vehicle and they do not leave when you stop them.
I am thinking here - if my vehicle and my (precious) guns within - I am gonna be very pissed very quick and so my verbal challenges will be fast fierce and non complimentary. Whilst I wish as ever to avoid trouble I will not have my property interfered with willingly by another.
Thus, if after sufficient verbals - the idiot decides to flee - so be it - police report coming up. If tho he decides to get heavy and threaten with lethal force - it's ''game on''!
The third option is that he ignores you and succeeds in gaining entry - then in most places that's it - you can't take it any further other than dial in and hope popo get on it quick.
If in Texas ... welll ... hmmm .... could be interesting!! Tho I'd still not in truth want to be hurling lead in that sorta area anyways.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
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June 8th, 2005 01:26 AM
When he gets his hand on one of of your guns, he's armed....
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
June 8th, 2005 04:37 AM
I asked one of my cop buddies about this, and this was his recommendation.
1st call 911 (if you have a cell phone), then give a loud and aggressive verbal command to stop and get away from "My Vehicle" , letting the perp know that it is indeed your car, the police are on the way (even if you didnt have a cell to call 911), and that you're not just some do-gooder trying to be brave. In his personal opinion, there are usually 2 responses that occurs. The most likely is that the BG will stop and take off, leaving you with the choice to call it in afterwards or not if you didn't already (depending on if theres damage). The 2nd and less ocurring response is that the BG turns on you aggressively. Normally, the BG will have some kind of tool to break into the car with, and that can be considered a possible weapon, and that's when it's time to draw your weapon. When that happens, you loudly and aggressively order the BG to back off or you'll use deadly force (his words were more like "Back off motherf***er or I'll blow your f***ing head off!!"). If he still comes at you with tool in hand, and he get's within a few feet of you, then take him down. If the police haven't arrived yet or if you weren't able to make the call at the beginning, make sure to immediately call 911 and report the shooting. If he turns on you and he's unarmed, then run back into the store and call the police from inside. He made it a point to NOT draw your gun if he's unarmed and not too close.
On the other hand, I had another bud, who has a CCW, and caught someone trying to break into his car as he came out of a nightclub. He immediately drew his gun on the BG, and told him to freeze and get on the ground. Which the BG did. Someone else in the garage saw this and called the police saying "someone is waving a gun around!" My bud kept the gun on the BG, and when the police arrived, he immediately put the gun on the ground before they got out of their cruisers and walked towards them with his hands up stating that he caught the guy breaking into his car, and that he has a CCW. He told me the officers, after checking his CCW, were real cool with him. After a search of the BG, they found a pocket knife, a large screwdriver and a small vile of meth in his pocket, which was enough to send him to jail.
Over all he said the police were very cool with him, took down his statement, then handed him back his weapon and said have a nice night.
May the Schwartz be with you
June 8th, 2005 06:45 AM
In Virginia it would work like this. You challenge the BG. He attacks you. You use deadly force to "defend yourself". Court finds that you interjected yourself into the situation that led to your use of deadly force. You are guilty of whatever charge the Commonwealth's Attorney cares to bring. Now not all CWs will bring charges, however some certainly will. It is up to chance and geography as to whether or not you would come out ok. In places like Texas and Kentucky you can defend your vehicle, so as always local, and state laws vary and should be checked. Your local prosecutor's office is a good resource.
So do what has been recommended. Call 911, challenge and tell BG police are on the way and get a good description. The LEOs I know all say the BG will flee. The BGs that will confront, just wait for you to unlock and try to get in and then they carjack you. Now that is a different deal in VA. Because the BG has assaulted you with intent to do you harm deadly force may be used.
My two pennies.
June 8th, 2005 07:44 AM
In Fla. the "Castle Doctrin" states that you do not have the duty to retreat from you home or your vechicle. Now if already in the vech. I know what I would do. BUT------before you get into your vech. would be entirely different. I know one thing----it would be awfully hard to stand there and let the BG drive away with your vech. Also--- if my wife was already inside i would-------?? Well you know!!
June 8th, 2005 12:36 PM
In your verbal challenge, state, "Loaded firearm in that vehicle. Desist." Repeat. If the perp continues to try entering your vehicle, that would constitute actively accessing a deadly weapon, and so...... I would disagree with using profanity, it makes you appear to be a "combatant", rather than an Authority. I've always considered/used it as an escalation....
June 8th, 2005 12:47 PM
Someone is going to have to inject realism into this debate at the congressional levels of our home states. I just finished a letter to our editor of The Wisconsin State Journal.
In the 'Local' section of our June 8th paper, that section's front page story has info on the new Taser guidelines. Some months ago a black youth fleeing an officer was shot in the back with a Taser. It turned out he was innocent. (Then why flee?)
The black community in Madison has held us hostage for decades. The whites of this college community will do anything from being blamed as a racist. The race card always works in Madison.
We now have rules that dictate that Tasers not be used on people running away.
One page three of that same section, we have a story about a felon who secured a car and raced back and forth on our Beltline at 90 MPH until stopped by road spikes.
If this guy could have been contained before this thing escalated it would have been safer for everyone, including the felon.
The protection of your parked vehicle and its contents also deny a felon to equipment needed in his further escape. He has no car, no weapon, no money and no fuel. Within seconds, and due primarily to this namby-pamby debate on situational ethics, the felon is now equipped for a deadly run.
Some states allow the use of dealy force to curttail car-jacking. This should be obvious.
June 8th, 2005 12:48 PM
I swear the lawyers are ruining this country. Someone is trying to break into your car, (a felony), and there are people on this site that would just turn around, do nothing, and leave to call the police????? In most cases this is the second most expensive possession you own, your home being first. If you came out and found someone rapeing your wife would you walk away and call 911? Just be a good witness? Where is the line drawn where you protect what is yours?
Yes I would call 911 too, mabe before, maybe after confronting the thief, depends on the situation. I am also not saying you attack guns blazeing but I would certainly yell for this bum to get away from my car. My hand would be on my gun, maybe drawn and at my side but not visible to the thief. A car thief can be in and gone in under 2 minutes so unless the police just happen to be right there you are out one very expensive possesstion. In most cases I think they would run when confronted. If they run I then become a good witness, I don't shoot them as they are running away. If they turn on me the gun comes out and up. If they advance after faceing me with drawn gun their intention is to disarm me and shoot me, I shoot them first.
Last edited by havegunjoe; June 8th, 2005 at 02:36 PM.
Reason: addition to post
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
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June 9th, 2005 10:59 AM
Masterfinger's cop buddy gave him pretty much the same advice my cop buddy gave me.
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