Why I Carry

This is a discussion on Why I Carry within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Bob The Great The moment he pointed the gun at you and threatened to shoot you, you had justification to use any ...

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Thread: Why I Carry

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great View Post
    The moment he pointed the gun at you and threatened to shoot you, you had justification to use any means you could to save your life, up to and including deadly force. Being on his property wasn't relevent. You were performing the duties of your employment, and he explicitly gave you permission to come onto his property and take the propane tank.

    Not to say you should have shot him (if you had been armed), but (depending on what state this was in) I believe you had justification to do so. You chose the negotiation option, and it worked out.

    Good to know your partner was looking out for you.
    Agreed 100%

    Also in most states there are laws toward repossession of goods and disconnection of services that protect the supplier/provider in cases like this where as part of official business they do or need to go onto a customers property to provide, activate, supply, or retrieve property or discontinue/deactivate services prior provided to which charges are due.
    He would most likely not have required permission from the home owner nor even requested it or even alerted the homeowner for that matter. Services such as telephone, cable, gas (e.g. natural), water, and heating oil et. al. along with of course repo of ones vehicle, furnishings, or even eviction from their place or rented/leased/mortgaged residence falls under these protections.

    Thank goodness a calm mind prevailed and was able to talk down a crazy nut bag who had no one to be upset with but himself for not paying his as agreed to and owed bill.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
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    Being 21 years old, alot of people don't understand that I have an extremely rare terminal illness that can allow me to easily get hurt. Having over 15 bone breaks, 3 pins and a tendon removed from my left knee,and 4 pedigral screws in my back,its physically impossible for me to run. That also being said, its impossible for me to fight with any kind of effiency. Only reason my plates are handicapped is my diginity


    "To blame a gun for a mans decision is to foolishly attribute free will to an inanimate object"- Colion Noir.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Shooting a customer on his own property...that's gonna' hurt in court! OMO, but not a good situation, fortunately he would have had a witness.
    Don't like the idea of counting on a witness.

    Sometimes the witness, freaked out by what he/she has seen, might start blurting out some baaaaad stuff, like, "OMG, why did you shoot him?!" or "You didn't have to shoot him!!" or some such -- particularly if the witness was not the guy with a gun pointed at him during the encounter.

    I knew that my ex-girlfriend was not keen on me carrying. (She seemed to accept it and later maybe even warm to it later on...) I used to worry that if I had to defend us by shooting someone, she might have spoken to investigating officers and said something that cast doubt on my decision to shoot, or the need for it.

    There's always that chance. Better hope that the objective evidence backs you up, and not just the witness, 'cause I don't think you can always count on a freaked-out person to be your best advocate.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    That propane tank probably wouldn't have blown up after being shot, unless tracer or incendiary ammo was involved.
    Would it not have explosively decompressed at least? (assuming full and not empty)

    If it did, couldn't shrapnel be a factor?

    I don't want to go believing hollywood hype if it's a misdepiction.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddae52 View Post
    The only thing that kept them from being shot, was that the man decided he didnt want to pull the trigger. Could have ended very differently.
    Exactly. These scenarios should be decided by the whim of the assailant as rarely as we can manage it. Who wants to have to wait on the decision of a VCA? Isn't it better if someone proactively wrests control over the situation from the bad guy?

  7. #21
    Member Array BluesStringer's Avatar
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    zzrider, do you still work for the same company? Are there stated policies about carrying on the job?

    Reason I ask is, I drive for a company that, similarly, I spend better'n half my work-day on other people's property. My company is a very large one and the policy is NO guns, NO knives, NO nothin' that could be construed as a threat to a would-be attacker, lest they take it from you and use it against you (so the policy goes, I think it's more about limiting lawsuit exposure from the perp or his family after I deploy whatever weapon I use that stops him).

    Well, policy be damned, I pack. Always. I can always get another job. I don't have any vital organs that are dispensable however. Nor does my wife have a disposable husband!

    As the saying goes, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I've never had to even brandish my weapon in more than 30 years of concealed carry, which I am imminently grateful for, but whether at work, at home, at play or wherever, I don't trust anyone else to be responsible for my personal safety, especially not some bean-counter sittin' in a corporate office a 1,000 miles from here setting one-size-fits-all policies that don't fit any real-world circumstances.

    I think in the scenario you describe, I'd have dropped the guy and hit the bricks a' runnin' lookin' for a new job just as soon as Johnny Law cut me loose, which, here in Bama, should be pretty quick since June of last year we got a "No Retreat" bill passed.

    Anyway, I was just curious how your company views their out-in-the-field employees carrying.

    Blues
    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington

  8. #22
    Member Array Jester's Avatar
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    Try to shoot an empty propane tank... A pistol will not penetrate the tank. NOW if he shot the valve, until the check valve caught you'd get some spray, but still no boom.

    That said, I'd have said, sorry for the misunderstanding, left, and came back with the authorities.

  9. #23
    Ex Member Array glocksandkahrs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Try to shoot an empty propane tank... A pistol will not penetrate the tank. NOW if he shot the valve, until the check valve caught you'd get some spray, but still no boom.

    That said, I'd have said, sorry for the misunderstanding, left, and came back with the authorities.
    There are several pistol rounds that will easily penetrate a propane tank using FMJ. I've personally done it with .38 super, 7.62x25mm Tokarev and 10 mm ball ammo. The OP didn't specify what pistol the guy was using to point at the tank...

    But, my experience was with a smaller "BBQ" style 20lb tank, but I wouldn't think the metal cylinder is any thinner since propane is all LP gas. It was about half full and NO...it' didn't blow up. Just some hissing...

  10. #24
    Member Array 2ndfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzrider View Post
    He waited a few seconds then threw the gun down and said "pick it up." (his light bulb came back on) I told him I had no intentions of picking up his gun. He said "well,.......you can't anyway.....you don't have a handgun permit." When I got back in the truck my partner had been trying to call 911...
    I was just curious about a couple of things. Was the gun still on the ground when you got back in the truck? Did the nut go back inside, with or without the gun, before you left?

    I am just asking because I don't think I would allow someone who had threatened me with a gun to pick it up after throwing it down in a moment of clarity.

    Please don't take this as criticism. I am not second-guessing your actions. I probably would not have picked it up either. Who knows what he would have done if you had. He could have had another gun or knife that he planned to use as you bent down to pick it off the ground. I would just feel pretty uneasy walking back to the truck (and driving off) if he were standing there with the gun at his feet.

  11. #25
    New Member Array zzrider's Avatar
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    BluesStringer, (howdy neighbor...I live in Pulaski)
    I've been with this company seven years, I respect the properties of propane gas , and gas vapor. I personally don't carry on the job and don't think there are to many pistol packing propane guys. Some of the places I have to crawl to find an fix leaks, in a confined space, does not lend itself to wearing my pistol , and I'm not leaving it sitting in my truck. Outside of work, I carry.
    2ndfan
    Yes it was on the ground when I left as far as I can remember, and he was still in the yard. A quarter mile away finally I had phone service, I called in to report the incident, the fellow with the gun called in to say that "whatever he tells you about a gun... he's lying!" Before the Sherriff's department guys showed up later he made the gun vanish. He forgot there was an eye witness to the incident sitting in the truck.

  12. #26
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    Jester: "shot the valve, until the check valve caught" On small cylinders such as 20lbs'ers if the valve is compromised or broken off there is not a check-valve to stop the flow.

    glocksandkahrs: A 20lb cylinder is a DOT spec tank, a house tank such as a 250 gal tank is a ASME spec tank, different thicknesses.

    Explosions occur when gas accumulates, and then you have a source of ignition, then you get the BOOMS

    DO NOT SHOOT PROPANE TANKS


    SleepingZ

  13. #27
    Member Array Jester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleepingZ View Post
    Jester: "shot the valve, until the check valve caught" On small cylinders such as 20lbs'ers if the valve is compromised or broken off there is not a check-valve to stop the flow.



    SleepingZ
    Tell me why would a propane company be coming to pick up a 20lb tank.. Get realistic.

  14. #28
    Ex Member Array glocksandkahrs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleepingZ View Post
    glocksandkahrs: A 20lb cylinder is a DOT spec tank, a house tank such as a 250 gal tank is a ASME spec tank, different thicknesses.
    So, is the ASME tank thicker or thinner than DOT specs?

    And Jester, they wouldn't be picking up a 20 lb "BBQ" tank. Many houses use big propane tanks. Sometimes up to 500 gal in my neck of the woods.

  15. #29
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    Jester: Thanks for your response, let me clarify, any tank from 5lbs to 1000 gal size, if you compromise the vapor valve there is no safety check to stop the flow, same thing if you compromise the relief valve-no check valve to slow down the flow.

    glocksandkahrs- asme spec tanks are thicker than 20lb BBQ type tanks (DOT)

    Hope this answers ???

    Best to the both of you.


    SleepingZ

  16. #30
    Ex Member Array jmsstnr's Avatar
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    OP,

    Think I would have offered to pay his bill, since you were unarmed. That is what you had to deal with. Not "what if" but "what now"

    james

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