Women Walks into Logan Airport with Fake Bomb, What would you do?? - Page 3

Women Walks into Logan Airport with Fake Bomb, What would you do??

This is a discussion on Women Walks into Logan Airport with Fake Bomb, What would you do?? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm very surpised someone didn't get a murder charge and she didn't become instantly eligible for the Darwin Awards. This is art like hollering 'fire' ...

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Thread: Women Walks into Logan Airport with Fake Bomb, What would you do??

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    I'm very surpised someone didn't get a murder charge and she didn't become instantly eligible for the Darwin Awards. This is art like hollering 'fire' in a crowded theater is free speach.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan


  2. #32
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J View Post
    Oh come on... a 9V battery powering a few green LED's on a bread board, any moron with more than a 6th grade education can figure out that was no bomb.
    Well, I barely squeaked by sixth grade and I would not take the simple view that it was only, 'a 9V battery powering a few green LED's on a bread board.' In fact, I have often seen breadboards with components on both sides. Imagine that! And, to detect it wan't a bomb is very easy sitting at a keyboard, miles away from the threat, after the fact.

    Congratulations to airport authorities that took quick and decisive action. The girl is very lucky she was not killed.

    The truth is that this is no different than the flying imam story. Perhaps this was a test to cause authorities to hesitate in the event of future attacks. If they now let fake bombs 'any moron with more than a 6th grade education can figure out' then exactly when should they take action? How about a fake bomb that a mentally challenged person that made it through eleventh grade can figure out? The complacency from some on this board is quite surprising.

  3. #33
    Member Array P991911's Avatar
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    Allow Me To Rephrase

    The LEOs were totally justified for their actions. This chick totally deserves the Darwin Award. As others have mentioned, her appearance screams, "Hey, look at me!" Well, she got attention. The LEOs had no way of knowing whether or not the bomb was armed, fake, or not a bomb at all. As a matter of fact the only way to know for sure in a situation like that would be if the bomb actually exploded. In which case, people would be pointing fingers everywhere declaring neglience on the part of the LEOs. In conclusion, without the ability to determine whether or not she had a real bomb at that particular moment, the officers seemed to excersise a gargantuan amount of restraint. In Iraq, soldiers would have dropped her in a New York Minute. I understand that this incident did not happen in Iraq. However, the scenerio the girl brought on is very similar to those real life scenerios soldiers face on a daily basis. The act was the same, thus meaning the site of the act is no longer relevant. God bless our LEOs.

    - Ex-Airborne Infantryman

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    And of course lets not forget the intelligence value of her little escapade. Those who would enter Logan with an actual device now have a pretty god idea of what kind of response they can expect from the security there. So now the question is, is she so clueless that she has no idea of the potential consequences of her actions, or was this actually an intentional act for that specific purpose?

  5. #35
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    A use of force must be reasonable

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    And of course lets not forget the intelligence value of her little escapade. Those who would enter Logan with an actual device now have a pretty god idea of what kind of response they can expect from the security there. So now the question is, is she so clueless that she has no idea of the potential consequences of her actions, or was this actually an intentional act for that specific purpose?
    And so you are saying that next time I go to the airport I'm fair game if I look the least bid out of the ordinary? What about that 12 year old cell phone (dual analog-digital) on my hip. If some idiot thinks it might be a bomb he is free to shoot my butt?

    I suppose we are actually doing very well as a nation in that few such incidents occur. That speaks well for most people and for most security folks.

    Still, I'm apalled at the quickness with which some feel lethal force should be used. It must be reserved for THE GRAVEST EXTREME, for instances where there is opportunity, intent, threat, immediacy, and no other option.

    A cop friend once told me that he has no more right to use deadly force than any license holder-- the difference being that he is not required to retreat. There was no right to point a gun at her in this specific circumstance. Security's unjustifiable panic doesn't justify unlawful use of force or threat of force.

    There was in this airport situation insufficient justification for the presentation of firearms or for the arrest. At least that is my very firm view on it.

    We can't cloud this issue (which is a CCW related issue, when is deadly force appropriate) with issues of terrorism prevention, " lets not forget the intelligence value of her little escapade."

    Sometimes things are actually just what they look like. In this case a naive girl wearing what she thought was a cute gadget on her shirt. If there is intelligence value in the incident, it comes from the now widespread dissemination of information about this incident. That is, from airport security's over-reaction, rather than from what this girl did. And don't forget, they will have plenty of time to investigate her background to determine if there were improper motives. Let's just hope they don't make some up and run them up a flag pole.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Hopyard, I do not recall endorsing the use of lethal force on her. Your posts do raise some questions in my mind.
    How were the security officers supposed to know her intent? There was obviously opportunity and they perceived a threat that was immediate. As they did not shoot her it appears to me that they did exercise another option.
    As for your assertion that, "Sometimes things are actually just what they look like. In this case a naive girl wearing what she thought was a cute gadget on her shirt." How do you know this to be fact? Do you personally know this girl? And yes, they will have plenty of time to investigate. However, the officers at the airport (who may not be electrical engineers) had to make a split second decision. We have all had the luxury of viewing the "device" up close in photographs with the prior knowledge that it is not a bomb. Can you make that determination from fifty feet in less than a second? I doubt I could. I would much prefer for security personel to react exactly as they did in Boston as opposed to either dropping her in her tracks, or just ignoring her and writing her off as harmless. If I saw her walking through the airport I would definitely notify security and get to a safe distance.

  7. #37
    Member Array P991911's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Hopyard;484938][QUOTE]And so you are saying that next time I go to the airport I'm fair game if I look the least bid out of the ordinary? What about that 12 year old cell phone (dual analog-digital) on my hip. If some idiot thinks it might be a bomb he is free to shoot my butt?

    I suppose we are actually doing very well as a nation in that few such incidents occur. That speaks well for most people and for most security folks.

    Still, I'm apalled at the quickness with which some feel lethal force should be used. It must be reserved for THE GRAVEST EXTREME, for instances where there is opportunity, intent, threat, immediacy, and no other option.

    A cop friend once told me that he has no more right to use deadly force than any license holder-- the difference being that he is not required to retreat. There was no right to point a gun at her in this specific circumstance. Security's unjustifiable panic doesn't justify unlawful use of force or threat of force.

    There was in this airport situation insufficient justification for the presentation of firearms or for the arrest. At least that is my very firm view on it.

    We can't cloud this issue (which is a CCW related issue, when is deadly force appropriate) with issues of terrorism prevention, " lets not forget the intelligence value of her little escapade."

    Sometimes things are actually just what they look like. In this case a naive girl wearing what she thought was a cute gadget on her shirt. If there is intelligence value in the incident, it comes from the now widespread dissemination of information about this incident. That is, from airport security's over-reaction, rather than from what this girl did. And don't forget, they will have plenty of time to investigate her background to determine if there were improper motives. Let's just hope they don't make some up and run them up a flag pole.


    Hopyard, are you still in college? I am not trying to offend you but I must ask this question. How much real world experiences have you dealt with? Have you ever yourself had to deal with a situation anywhere close to this? It sounds that you are passing judgement on the situation without full knowledge because you are uninformed. Once again, allow me to ask you. How and when would you know if it were a bomb or not? I understand that one can say that an old phone, a broken watch, or a myriad of things can be construded as a "bomb." However, there is a line. There is no law to date that makes that line clear, because situations are too fluid, and change very quickly. It would be impossible for law makers to draw a line that applies to every situation. This is where an individuals common sense or lack of, comes into play. Can you tell me why you would think that it would be a WISE decision to wear circuits and wires on the outside of a thick, hooded sweater at an airport, or anywhere for that matter? If you were to make a costume of a man or woman wearing an explosives device, wouldn't the appearence of the female in question be close to what you would think of? You can not justify her mistake by saying she was naive, stupid, sheltered, or any other adjective to excuse her behavior. Society can not be held accountable, nor should we lower our standards because of "naive," individuals. On top of all this, she was playing with silly putty. Have you ever even seen plastic explosives or any other type of volatile chemicals to be used in making a bomb? If the answer is no, then you really do not know what you are talking about and are only showing us that you have 0 knowledge of "explosives.'' For us that know, she appeared to be a threat. Lucky for her, she followed the instructions of the LEOs to the "T" and was peacefully taken into custody to be investigated. Let me ask you another question. What if you were wrong, and she did have a bomb, and she managed to get by security and detonated the device? Would you be bashing the LEOs and security? I am sure that you will somehow find, in your opinion, credible and justifiable responses, even though it is apparent that you have little knowledge on the subject. This is why I took the time to educate you. Not everything can be replicated in the classroom. I doubt that you are a brain surgeon, I say this because the odds of speaking to a brain surgeon v.s. a McDonald's employee would be much lower simply due to the fact that they outnumber brain surgeons by at least 5000 to 1. So to assume that you were working in McDonalds would be a better guess than accusing you of being a surgeon simply due to statistics. Once again,I am not trying to offend anyone. Now, back to the topic. Since you are probably not a brain surgeon, I would guess that you don't criticize many brain surgeons. If you are not a soldier, LEO, or any type of armed security officer, then why would you criticize their actions if they were to use lethal force or even present a firearm. As far as intent, no one knew what her intent was. Ability? Who knows. Opportunity? Heck yeah, she had opportunity. Im not addressing just one of your posts hopyard, Im addressing all of them. So before you say that Im not understanding you, or "Thats not what I said in my last post!" Remeber this, YES, you did. Once again, I am not trying to hurt your feelings, but I am trying to help you understand the important issues.



    -Take it easy, and good luck

  8. #38
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    response to question

    [QUOTE=P991911;484957
    Hopyard, are you still in college? I am not trying to offend you but I must ask this question. -Take it easy, and good luck[/QUOTE]

    No, I'm 64. And I understand why you asked the question. No, I'm not siding with the young woman because I'm a kid who feels some affinity for her...she could be my grand kid. So I'm looking at the incident from that perspective.

    I've been around long enough to have seen my fair share of police "mistakes."

    We all should know very well that the use of deadly force requires certain well defined anticedants. Means, and intent. And that doesn't mean, "I thought they had the means." And it doesn't mean I thought they had the intent. Raw fear doesn't count-- or at least that is the law where I live.

    I think the young lady perhaps used poor judgment. But the overall circumstance did not add up to justification for assaulting her or for arresting her.

    I'm quite sure that had I seen that shirt and that gadget, I'd have laughed, or at least smiled. Someone overreacted.

    A talking head on FOX tried to argue that she acted suspiciously because she asked a uniformed attendant for flight information instead of just looking it up on a display, and twisted that to the notion that she was attention seeking. Give me a break. Again, things are sometimes exactly what they appear. She needed info and asked. Nothing more. Someone's doing "the twist."

    I particularly object to the comments posted earlier in this thread to the effect that had they seen her they would have shot her. Doing so would have been unjustifiable by any individual, and it would have been unjustifiable homicide by the officers themselves had they done so. For an airport spokesperson to go on TV and brag that they would have, is outrageous.

    (We have fortunately had very little experience with suicide bombers or terroism at airports. I can think of only one event, years ago, --where someone shot up an El Al area in LA. We are very far from needing to damn near kill a college kid for nothing, and then brag about how justified we are on TV. That is what I find so offensive in the actions of the Logan staff. They seem to me to need retraining in the legal justification for use of lethal force.)

  9. #39
    Member Array Geo2020's Avatar
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    Detaining her for a search would seem to be all that was necessary. If she ignored verbal commands or resisted, then I can see weapons being drawn.

    As far as security blowing it out of proportion, seems a given.... But I cut them a lot of slack.

    I would absolutely rather have an innocent (ignorant) girl stopped at gun point on rare occasion, than security be too scared of the repercussions of stopping someone.

  10. #40
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    Seems the response by security was right on. She was detained at gunpoint due to the fact she could well have had a explosive device. Monday morn . QB'ing is easy, being there and dealing w/ a suspect isn't.
    Make no mistake , we are at war with terrorists. The sooner US citizens understand it can happen here again, the better.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  11. #41
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    This is just one of those things that begs for common sense. When you leave for the airport with your powered "art" shirt, how do you silence that little voice in your head that says "hey, this MIGHT be a bad idea".

    Especially in the age when you can get your hair gel tossed in security if its in too large a container.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Seems the response by security was right on. She was detained at gunpoint due to the fact she could well have had a explosive device. Monday morn . QB'ing is easy, being there and dealing w/ a suspect isn't.
    Make no mistake , we are at war with terrorists. The sooner US citizens understand it can happen here again, the better.


    Personally I wouldn't have shed a tear if she had gotten shot.

    Now before everybody gets their panties in an uproar, just remember this, If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

    She looked like a terrorist with an IED. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, I've even done it myself. If I thought that she had an IED and I was at the airport in an LEO capacity I may have decided to shoot. I'm just glad I wasn't there.

    Make no mistake about it, we are at war with Muslim Extremist and it is just a matter of time before someone with a real IED decides to have a real "situation" at a populated location.

    Biker

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    We all should know very well that the use of deadly force requires certain well defined anticedants. Means, and intent. And that doesn't mean, "I thought they had the means." And it doesn't mean I thought they had the intent. Raw fear doesn't count-- or at least that is the law where I live.
    1) Means. Sorry, I'm not an electrician.
    2) "Raw fear". That would be fear for your life well-being.

    Depending on how she responded to a question (challenging or obfuscatory), and you've got Justification. At least in TX.

    We excuse far too much by saying, "they're just kids...", Hop. That's part of the reason we have so much violence and maiming- abrogation of responsibility. Should she have been shot? By law, no.

    However, the best predicator of future action is prior performance. Ergo, assuming she continues her "shocking artistic impressions", sooner or later, she'll get someone hurt or killed. Most likely it will be a cop or other EMS responder, trying to balence PC against risk, and a crowd/event. Is that worth her "developing maturity"? Not to me.
    Some people are occupying space and utilizing resources that would be to the greater benefit of society if the occupier would simply step out.

  14. #44
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    I agree with everyone except hopyard lol.

    Sorry Hopyard, Im sure we have somthing in common. Hey! We carry guns. There ya go!!!!

  15. #45
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    Thumbs down shame on her

    In this day and age you just dont do certain things, and thats one of em. If I saw that, I'd make a beeline to the nearest cop and raise hell. No offense, but my life is worth more then her bad art.
    Now, maybe I'm biased because I actuall had 5 female muslims on a plane with me that swat raided and took into custody. We were about to take off, engine powering up and everything when we suddenly turned back to thge gate. Cops surrounded the plane, stormed it with guns drawn and took 5 into custody. They had no tickets, no passes, and tons of luggage, and if it wasnt for a vigilant flight attandant who noticed them, Gods only know what would have happened. Forgive me, but I tend to look on things like this with a less then accepting viewpoint.
    Cheers,

    Johnny Rebel


    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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