September 22nd, 2007 03:59 PM
prolly not a good idea to enter property no longer under a customer's control either...
IMHO if the current leaseholder is not a client you are in effect a trespasser...
BTW the propane guy blocks my drive a several times a year to service the neighbor's tank - my place is "ALL" electric and I have had to ask them to leave my drive several times - if I caught him shooting my dog - there would be very certain consequences...
IANAL and I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn express last night
when I did route sale I always carried doggie treats
September 22nd, 2007 06:03 PM
MR D: Thanks for your post. Now I do have a question for you and let me state right off I am in no way being disrespectful whatsoever to you. In your post you stated that if a delivery person shot your dog on your property "very certain consequences" I am wondering in your state what would happen? I also did not stay at H.I. last night but I believe in my state the shooter may be charged with trespass, but that would be hard to stick, because they were not asked to leave first, or they may be charged with destruction of property. Outside of that, I don't know what other criminal charges would apply. If the dog owner sued the shooter in civil court, the owner may get the value of the dog back at best. Whats your thought?
I also have dogs and would be equally upset if they were shot.
September 22nd, 2007 08:19 PM
Dern tootin' they know when you're askirit of 'em.....
Well-handled situation on your part, I'd say.
"...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."
Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.
September 22nd, 2007 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by limatunes
Well, there's his problem!
FWIW, you would have a load of troubles if you were to shoot someones elses dog that is in its own yard, no matter if the dog was attacking you or not.
September 22nd, 2007 10:19 PM
Last month, local sheriff's deputies attempting to serve arrest warrant arrived at the wrong house-not next door but on the wrong street. Entered the fenced backyard and shot the family's 9 yo German shepard dead. Said they "feared for their lives."
Apology from the sheriff. BFD.
Probably have some liability for the shooting due to the fact they were at the wrong address in the first place.
Shoot? Don't Shoot?
September 22nd, 2007 10:48 PM
Some states like this one have a fellony charge for unjustified dog shooting so
September 22nd, 2007 11:39 PM
Yes, I would say it is an effective technique for a lot of dogs. Don't try using candy with people, but a treat for a dog, is ok in my book.
Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey
Dogs, for the most part (hunting dogs are exceptions) don't know what a gun is even when pointed at them. And in this particular scenario, the dog was not aggressive, he was simply "heeling" him as he went to check out the tank.
If I remember correctly the OP works for a propane company, so I would assume that he comes in contact with lots of different people and their dogs daily. I would assume that if the dog was showing definate signs of aggression or likelyhood to attack, the OP would not have even gotten out of the truck.
As far as having time to draw a weapon on an attacking dog, well my guess is that a dog can close that infamous 21 feet that a knife attacker has, much, much faster than any human with a blade. So I would say if your closer than 30 feet or so, your going to get bit if that is what the dog has on his mind.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
September 23rd, 2007 12:00 AM
I love dogs as well (I own two) and would not want to shoot anyones pet. That being said, that dog would have been on my hit list after he got you the first time.Never mind the second time or after biting me.
A dog comes out of it's yard or into mine and bites my kid and that is his ***. There will not be a second time. Especially since this animal went for your face. He was not just trying to give you a message. He was trying to seriously hurt or kill you. A dog does not know a gun from a stick when pointed at them, but they do know a face and it's importance. They bite your hand or arm that's one thing. The face is a completely different story. I don't think it's too far a reach to say that he was going for your eyes.
That dog would have long gotten itself disappeared long before he had the change to do more harm. IMO, once a dog attacks like this he WILL do it again. Your story illustrates my point.
Your father must be a gentle soul with the patience and restraint of a saint.
I am not mean and not cruel, but I will not be afraid to let my child play outside because of an animal. I give no quarter to an animal once it has attacked my family. Especially in the manor in which you were attacked.
You trespassing in another yard or home? Completely different story.
If it was my dog that went out into the street and attacked a little girl... biting her in the face, it would be shot. I would invite her father to watch. I do not trust a dog once it has attacked and certainly will not have it in my home with my family.
Nuff said I think.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!
-- Theodore Roosevelt --
September 23rd, 2007 05:54 AM
It really can be a great technique. Most people do not teach their dogs to be wary of strangers offering food.
Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey
I had a black lab years ago who had a routine with the electric meter reader. That dog would raise hell as soon as he heard the vehicle coming up the driveway. The meter reader would just hop out of the truck, my dog would walk closer still raising cane, and the worker would litterally stuff a treat in his mouth and keep on walking over to the meter. The dog would immediately take the treat and run to his bed and enjoy. I couldn't believe it when I saw it, but they had developed a routine of what the dog had to do to get his treat.
It won't work on every dog, but it is amazing how many it does work on. My current dog I have managed to train to ignore treats from unknown people and continue to focus on the intruder.
I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.
September 23rd, 2007 08:15 AM
Definitely recommend using dog sized targets when training your shooting skills. Not all the time, but odds are more in favour of a dog attack than a human attack.
I'd think no one wants to shoot another person's dog, but sometimes you gotta do things you don't want to do.
...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller
September 23rd, 2007 09:19 AM
No doubt in my mind they do and that they have a sense about character. That the dog did not sense you were a bad guy is probably why you made it so deep into its territory. Every person any of my dogs has disliked has turned out to be a creep on one level or another
Originally Posted by SleepingZ
September 23rd, 2007 10:14 AM
Can a dog sense fear by your action or lack there of in a way . What they can do however is scent your change during or prior to a confrontation your scent will change while this is happening ,and most likely combined with physical clues trigger an attack.
The wife and l have raised service dogs for years so l can sense an impending attack . and I have shot a dog (not one of ours or one in training) which was loose and wandered into our (trying to mount an attack aganist my daughters) with a lucky one shot outcome.he went to Pit Bull heaven and I can say for sure he didn't care about my weapon being pointed at him. So eyes down a more rounded stance in front of him / her moving slow best thing comeback another day . If you must touch or struggle try to do it with weak side so you will have your strong side for last resort.
It is not wrong to be Right
An apeaser is a man who hopes that the crocidle eats him last
September 23rd, 2007 10:30 AM
I agree that dogs can sense fear. I am a Police Officer and I do not go on someones property if they have a dog loose. Many people have invisible fences and let their dogs roam the front yard. A dog may seem excited to see you at first and then become territorial once you set foot on "their" property.
Police Defensive Tactics, Firearms, Carbine Rifle and Taser Instructor
NRA Life Member
It is better to have your gun and not need it, than to need it and not have it!
You cannot choose the conditions for a gunfight, so train in all conditions!
September 23rd, 2007 11:32 AM
BGs have been known to use that trick to get around dogs during a break in.
Originally Posted by SonofASniper
Train your pooch to not eat anything not in his bowl or from YOUR hand. People have been known to poison dogs by throwing loaded hot dogs over the fence.
September 23rd, 2007 03:37 PM
Actually, you should have not gotten out of the truck and trespassed on private property. That was the dog's home...not yours. I can think of no good reason you needed to get out to check a "tank" for fuel unless you were ready to take it. You were there as a bill collector.
You showed poor planning and poor judgement in getting out and confronting a dog on HIS home turf with no humans present. If you would have had to shoot the dog...had I been the owner....I would press charges.
May I suggest that you get a better job description from your employers, so you know what your legal duties are and what lines are are not allowed to cross. In my humble opinion.
A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
Susan B. Anthony
A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
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