Would you leave the scene?
This is a discussion on Would you leave the scene? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well, people removing evidence after you leave the scene is always a possibility and may become problematic.
However, that should not influence whether to remain ...
September 30th, 2007 08:58 PM
Well, people removing evidence after you leave the scene is always a possibility and may become problematic.
However, that should not influence whether to remain in a hostile area or not! If it's too dangerous to stay, then leave the area.
The fact that it was such a hot area which forced you to move, should be able to be argued in court that you were forced to leave due to continued hostilities. If all other aspects of your story check out and make sense to a reasonable person in the same situation, you should be ok.
You have to understand, nothing is 100%. When you take a life, in order to defend yourself, there has to be an accounting of it. You are gonna have to understand right from the get go that things may get very difficult for you for anything that isn't a clear cut and obvious case.
If you can't accept that fact, and many people can't, then you just have to rely on other people to always take care of you like the rest of the sheep.
I certainly wouldn't remain in a deadly situation just to guard possible evidence!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
September 30th, 2007 09:23 PM
We live in great technological times. One should not be without a cell phone if possible and that could be one of the greatest tools you can use in a situation like this.
One of our IDPA club member was doing some house to house campaining for some local official years ago. He noticed that two big dogs from across the street managed to come out and were making a beeline for him in a very aggressive manner. He draw his weapon and shot one of the dogs killing it and the other returned to the house. He got on the cellphone and called 911, informed them what happened and told him he was moving from the scene to avoid a possible confrontation with the owner in case he/she may come out of the house. He stayed on the phone the whole time, gave the operator his location and also said that he would go back to the scene the moment he saw a police car arriving.
Police arrived, he returned to the scene and identified himself to the officer. He did not have any problems with the law afterwards.
That does not mean that his actions apply in all jurisdictions everywhere, but from a smart & "tactical" viewpoint I cannot disagree with what he did.
He did have to endure his dear fellow IDPA club members after that incident (me included) who barked every time he was about to shoot a stage.
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
September 30th, 2007 10:07 PM
Yep, I would have no problem leaving if the situation was still life-threatening (BG's friends, for example). To me, leaving the scene to avoid further conflict is much preferable to staying and having to shoot someone else.
If I do leave, though, I'll be on the phone with 911 and making a beeline for the police station, both in case I'm being followed and to avoid giving a prosecutor any ammo.
Very far down on my list is worrying about disappearing evidence or witnesses. That's the LEO's job. My job is saving my butt. If my butt is safe and nobody seems to want a piece of it, I'll stay put and wait for the cops, but I'd much rather leave than have the officer pull up to see me standing over two dead people instead of one.
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?
October 1st, 2007 02:16 AM
I'm gone, but in contact with the police. unless of course it happened at my home. then I will stand my ground.
do what you can with what you have where you are at (theodore roosevelt)
October 1st, 2007 09:22 AM
Thankfully, I'm not involved in any shootings right now, but since I ccw, that chance exists. I spoke with a defense attorney about a month ago, and went through a couple of scenarios with him. I believe we're aware of most of this here in this forum, however here is a basic summary of his response to me, (it was interesting to hear what was foremost in his mind):
The taking of a life is SERIOUS business, the leo will initially investigate it as a murder until it begins to unravel otherwise. I could easily sit in jail for up to 72 hours, or possibly not at all, it's dependent on how the event occurred, witnesses involved, etc. Make no statements without legal advice. (Under the pressure of a shooting, I could misspeak and further complicate my case). He also wanted to know in my scenario, was a BG weapon involved and did the police recover it?
For the record, I didn't ask him about this particular scenario of the crowd turning hostile and me leaving the scene, and the BG weapon disappearing. No doubt if the crowd is hostile you'd better leave since your life is now at stake. Of course notifying 911 of your movement is very important. Regarding "tampering with the evidence", by grabbing the BG's weapon that will ultimately disappear. Given the chance, I'd consider taking it with me. Although tampered with, I think the leo's have something to work with, rather than my vague description of a gun that I allegedly said was there. There may be some partial fingerprints of the BG on the gun, mag, or cartridges. It may have matching clothing fibers from the BG's pants. No way the gun could be traced to me, but it's a very slim chance that it might be traced to the BG or some of his associates.
Just my opinion, certainly every case/scenario has so many variables it's impossible to predict what would be best.
October 4th, 2007 04:16 AM
I think you guys have been watching too much CSI with all the fingerprinting ideas for guns. Finding a fingerprint on a gun is really, really hard to do. Think about it, you oil your gun, your fingerprints are nothing but oil. Doesn't do well to try to distinguish oil from oil. Your magazine and cartridges come into contact with that oil as well. ;O)
However, someone mentioned always have a cellphone. Maybe a good idea would be to consider getting a camera phone, especially one that does not have a removable disk in it. Cellphones are very delicate technologically-speaking. LE has only one chance to download a bitstream (e.g. forensic) copy and then the phone resets its internal memory (e.g. wipes it clean). This is actually good for your case. While you are still at the scene, take a picture or two of the body with the weapon in place. With the fact that you can only access your phone's memory once, it proves that you haven't altered the picture and therefore it's forensically sound (meaning it can be used in court). Be aware that phones that have a removable disk (e.g. the LG chocolate, Motorola RAZR/KRZR/RAZR2, etc.) are a little more challenging to prove but it can be done, just not as easily as it is with a phone that doesn't have the removable disk.
It may seem a little weird or ethically wrong (or difficult) for you to be taking pictures of someone you just shot, however, it could be very beneficial if you have to leave the scene. LE is not going to fault you for leaving the scene if you don't feel safe, but make sure you have a pretty good reason for doing so and communicate that with the dispatcher along with a location to meet with LE. This is important. 1) You are calling LE. 2) You gave a recorded reason for leaving the scene, and 3) you are inviting LE to meet with you to continue the investigation. You may have not been the first one to call, but you are establishing yourself as the GG.
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler
October 4th, 2007 08:06 AM
The cell phone picture you've suggested is not a bad idea at all. With my cell phone cam, I've got to go through at least four steps to take a picture and store it. The storing part is of course very important. Right after the mental pressure of an encounter and subsequent shooting I hope that I would have the state of mind to remember to do that and be able to successfully capture a picture.
Originally Posted by soundwave
The BG's weapon is a key piece of evidence in my decision to defend myself. Good witnesses are too. Although evidence and witnesses are likely scarce for me in a hostile area. Without good witnesses, the gun's mere existence makes a big difference of whether I go home that night, or I begin the journey of spending lots of time and money establishing and defending my innocence.
FWIW I've never watched CSI . But 25 years as a reserve deputy has put me on the scene of quite a few shootings and murders.
October 4th, 2007 08:41 AM
I totaly agree with the leave if you must but call and move to the nearest Police station. This protects you from further threats and shows that you are not attempting to criminally evade the confrontation. Going to the police speakes volumes in the prosecutors eyes when questioning the shoot.
Originally Posted by Bob The Great
If the evidence did dissapear who made contact with the police and was upfront first will lead the thinking of who is telling the truth or hiding the truth.
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October 4th, 2007 10:24 AM
That is actually the recommendation made in the NRA publication "NRA Guide to Basic Personal Protection Outside the Home."
Originally Posted by fairway1
You are not under an obligation to let yourself remain under threat. It is understood that you are permitted to get yourself clear of any remaining threat and call the police at your earliest opportunity. Examples are cited, such as you have just shot someone who attempted to rob you, and you are in his neighborhood and his friends are beginning to circle and challenge you. What, you're supposed to stay there, and wait until you have to shoot one of them, too, or one of them retrieves a weapon to shoot you? Nuh-uh. Get to safety, or at least cover, and call police when you are able.
October 4th, 2007 10:31 AM
Let's say you decide you're able to safely remain in the vicinity. Someone comes upon the scene, does not make overt threats to you, but starts to pick-over the BG and move things, up to and including taking the weapon, let's say it's a big knife (even though he begins to move in the opposite direction to you, so he appears as no threat).
Originally Posted by ppkheat
What can you do? Draw your gun on him and order him to leave the scene intact or you'll shoot? What he's doing doesn't rise to the level where you should be shooting him, so... how do you stop him from screwing up the scene to where you might now look unjustified to have shot BG?
November 27th, 2007 10:45 PM
Withdraw to the nearest gun store, military facility or police station, which ever one is closest and open. Bet you that gang members won't come after you in one of those places. They may not be bright but they're probably not suicidal either. Once inside, use your cell phone to call for help.
Imagine that you're an enemy soldier and you are surrounded by U.S. Army paratroopers on one side and American marines on the other side... Talk about a hopeless
situation... That has got
to be legal grounds for suicide!
November 28th, 2007 01:15 AM
1943 - 2009
If you withdraw to the police station, why would you need to call for help on your cell phone?
Originally Posted by Airborne Sniper
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
November 28th, 2007 01:22 AM
I think everyone would certainly be wise to remove themselves from an area of immediate potential deadly danger. I sure would be in lightning quick and constant cell phone communication with Law Enforcement though.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
November 28th, 2007 01:50 AM
This is a dicey one. Yeah your safety is a pretty big priority. However, after you phone the police saying you've just shot someone, the police are going to be there in a hurry!! (2-3 minutes in my jurisdiction). From a law enforcement point of view, if you leave the scene, who is there to make sure nothing gets tampered with? What if someone takes the BG's gun? Now you are royally screwed if you're claiming self-defense.
November 28th, 2007 10:01 AM
For me, after the suspect is down, dial 911, speaker phone on, clip the phone to my collar.
"Someone just tried to kill me with a (insert weapon here), he/she has been shot and is down, there is a hostile crowd gathering and I am leaving the area for my own safety to a pubic location, I will stay on the line (unless you have AT&T) and will follow any instructions you have for me that will not place me in danger. Do you want me to secure the suspects weapon to insure that it does not fall into the possession of someone else? "
My phone has GPS location that is only active during 911 calls (yeah, right). It also has a camera, bit with the adrenaline that I will be experiencing (shaky hands), I doubt that a picture better than a blur will be possible.
Remember, anything you say to 911 will be recorded and is evidence.
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