Who should I protect?

This is a discussion on Who should I protect? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It is gonna sound silly, but first my family & friends and then I use the Dirty Harry directive: When a naked man is chasing ...

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Thread: Who should I protect?

  1. #31
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    It is gonna sound silly, but first my family & friends and then I use the Dirty Harry directive:

    When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a XXXXXX, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Stirring it up a bit.

    This scenario has been presented several times since I have been a member here. All I have to say is the following.

    There should be no more posts from members that say that they carry to protect themselves and their families about what would you do in this situation:

    At the shop and rob, at whatever hour and BG approaches.
    Went to the mall today and saw..... whatever.
    Was in the parking lot of, you name it, or any other scenarios that don't involve you directly at your home or you and your family when not directly confronted by danger.

    You have pretty well admitted that you will get you and your family out of the way regardless of what is happening run and hide in the corner or down the block in your car, or observe from some location and call the police and inform them of what is happening while the crime plays out.

    How can we have so many positive responses to citizens who are carrying with permits like the 80 something year old guy who shot the attacker in the Walmart, when so many of us on this forum are willing to say, well I would just call 911 and let them handle it, I am not a LEO, that isn't my wife or child. I am not a paid LEO, that isn't why I got my permit.

    Yes, we do have to observe what is happening, and not just go out guns a blazing, but come on. If people aren't willing to stand up for what is right, where would we be. If the LEO's, the military, past and present, or any other good samaritan that is out there, decided to say, hey, I am only protecting me and mine, then all of us would be in a world of trouble. It truely would be to each his own.

    Are you all willing to live in a country that is that self centered?

    I am glad Texas gives me that choice. I can and will intervene if the situation calls for it. Even though I am not being paid to, or I might have to go to court, or whatever. I don't think I could live with myself if I just sat by and watched someone die because I was worried about what the legal cost would be.

    Maybe I am stupid. I can live with that.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  4. #33
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    farron, remember that the responses are given short and sweet but there is a good deal of thought behind them even if we do not see them. The law is an important aspect: How far can you legally go in defending somebody else without getting yourself in trouble? Are you forced to retreat in your particular area? Castle Doctrine, how far does it cover?
    And then it is a matter of personal choice. You may disagree on one view and I might disagree on another, but the "worse" case is a CCW who will not become a victim.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    The Law

    Miggy,

    This is what Texas says I am legal in doing. Other states may be different. God bless Texas.

    PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A
    person is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other
    under Section 9.31; and
    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use
    of unlawful deadly force; or
    (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated
    kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery,
    or aggravated robbery.
    (b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force
    was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is
    presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
    (1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom
    the deadly force was used:
    (A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to
    enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle,
    or place of business or employment;
    (B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to
    remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation,
    vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
    (C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense
    described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);
    (2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used;
    and
    (3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a
    Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating
    traffic at the time the force was used.
    (c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the
    deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom
    the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at
    the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using
    deadly force as described by this section.
    TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS PC §9.42. 59
    (d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an
    actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of
    deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether
    the actor failed to retreat.
    PC §9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in
    using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:
    (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes
    them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in
    using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force
    or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the
    third person he seeks to protect; and
    (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately
    necessary to protect the third person.
    PC §9.34. PROTECTION OF LIFE OR HEALTH. (a) A person is
    justified in using force, but not deadly force, against another when and
    to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary
    to prevent the other from committing suicide or inflicting serious
    bodily injury to himself.
    (b) A person is justified in using both force and deadly force against
    another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force or
    deadly force is immediately necessary to preserve the other's life in an emergency.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    Me and My family

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fed View Post
    To all of you amateur guardians of the public - here's a scenerio.

    You pass by an alley and see a man forcing himself sexually on a woman. She is screaming for help. You draw your gun and tell him to stop. He turns and curses you and tells you to MYOB. You tell him to get on the ground. He doesn't have a weapon but says he's going to kick your butt. He comes at you. You shoot and kill him. After all, he was commiting a forceable felony, and you were just defending yourself, right?

    Wrong! Turns out they were a married couple play-acting for excitement. You are arrested. The wife testifies you're a loose cannon that shot her husband for no reason. You say a resonable person would have acted as you did. But the sobbing widow with the two small childrens' testimony gets you 20 years. She sues you civilly, and now YOUR penniless wife and children live with her parents.

    Think you're so smart now?
    So what's your suggestion for the proper course of action if you should observe what appears to be a rape in progress?

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fed View Post
    To all of you amateur guardians of the public - here's a scenerio.

    You pass by an alley and see a man forcing himself sexually on a woman. She is screaming for help. You draw your gun and tell him to stop. He turns and curses you and tells you to MYOB. You tell him to get on the ground. He doesn't have a weapon but says he's going to kick your butt. He comes at you. You shoot and kill him. After all, he was commiting a forceable felony, and you were just defending yourself, right?

    Wrong! Turns out they were a married couple play-acting for excitement. You are arrested. The wife testifies you're a loose cannon that shot her husband for no reason. You say a resonable person would have acted as you did. But the sobbing widow with the two small childrens' testimony gets you 20 years. She sues you civilly, and now YOUR penniless wife and children live with her parents.

    Think you're so smart now?
    Yea, well show me a real life scenario where this actually took place. We can all live in a dream world.

    And wrong, you would not be defending yourself. You should think your scenario through a bit first.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I agree with your instructor. You are not carrying to be everyones guardian, you are carrying to be yours.
    Agreed.

    I am not the Greatest American Hero and I have no delusions nor aspirations to be Captain Save-A-Ho.
    I have a fire extinguisher in my home for me not the neighbors and same goes for my firearms. They are to rescue mine and get me out of a tight spot to safety.
    Those who choose to ignore or not educate themselves toward as much for their own are on their own.

    Big boy rules.

    - Janq

    P.S. - I'd make an exception for a child in distress but that's about it. My wife and two kids need to have a roof over their head and daddy working from a desk in his office not in some state property facility.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Yea, well show me a real life scenario where this actually took place. We can all live in a dream world.
    Real world life is strange and interesting in that what ever one can imagine can, has, or will tomorrow happen...

    Story Created: Feb 21, 2007
    Story Updated: Feb 27, 2007

    Man Attacked with Sword While Watching Porn

    Heather Shannon

    OCONOMOWOC - An Oconomowoc man heard a neighbor watching an adult film, but mistakenly thought a woman was being raped.

    Bret Stieghorst was watching an adult movie with the volume up loud. His downstairs neighbor, James Van Iveren, heard a woman screaming in the movie, but thought a woman was actually being attacked. Instead of calling police, he took matters into his own hands, ran up the stairs and broke down the door, all while brandishing a three-foot long military-style sword.


    "He comes in with this three-foot long sword and starts pointing it at me, and going, 'Where is she?'" Stieghorst said.

    Van Iveren continued to point the sword at Stieghorst while he searched the apartment to make sure no woman was being held against her will. When Van Iveren did not find anyone else in the apartment, he left.

    Van Iveren was charged with criminal trespass while using a dangerous weapon, criminal damage to property while using a dangerous weapon and disorderly conduct while using a dangerous weapon, misdemeanors which carry a maximum total penalty of 33 months in jail.

    "The fact that he was at least trying to do something good, that's at least good," Stieghorst said.

    Neighbors agree.

    "I would be happy if someone tried to save me," Kandy Kimball said. "I think he's a good guy. I feel bad for him."

    "It's kind of nice that we live in a town where people don't just turn their back and look the other way," David Peterson said. "I don't think he should be charged with three crimes. I would like to see the courts work with him and give the guy a little break."

    "It was a woman screaming," Van Iveren said of the Feb. 12 incident. "She was screaming for help."

    He grabbed the sword, a family heirloom, bounded up the stairs to the other apartment, kicked in the door and confronted Stieghorst.

    "I intended to hold it behind my back and knock. But I froze and instead, what happened happened," Van Iveren said. "Now I feel stupid. This really is nothing, nothing but a mistake."

    Van Iveren said that he does not have a telephone, so he could not call police when he heard the calls for help. He said he barely knew Stieghorst.

    "It had nothing to do with him," he said. "I didn't even know if he was there. It was the woman. I thought there was a woman."

    "I walked in the front room and looked around. When I saw there was no woman, I left," he said. Van Iveren insisted that he never threatened the neighbor with the sword.

    "I had the sword extended. But that was all," he said.

    Van Iveren will appear in court March 5. Stieghorst said the incident will not deter him from watching pornography, but he'll have to alter his viewing habits.

    "I'm just going to watch it with the sound down, or I'll buy myself some decent headphones," he said.

    Additional coverage from Newsradio 620 WTMJ-AM

    The article can be found at; http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/5961006.html
    There have been numerous other cases of scenarios similar to this real world case and what The Fed mentioned as a scenario.
    If you can imagine it then it very well can or has if not will happen.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #40
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    Internet machismo, and butch talk is cheap,
    and overly abundant.

    If you are willing to get shot, get sued, lose
    your house, or go to prison for a situation
    when you don't even know the facts,
    you are welcome to it.

    I hope you guess right. If you guess wrong,
    you face the consequences alone.

    Trying to shame others because we aren't
    swinging our manly keyboards at hypothetical
    scenarios is ridiculous.




    --Travis--

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array Cap'n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Yea, well show me a real life scenario where this actually took place. We can all live in a dream world.

    And wrong, you would not be defending yourself. You should think your scenario through a bit first.
    farronwolf, just because many on this forum don't relish in the thought of "saving the day" doesn't give you the right to consider that their thinking is wrong or unpatriotic.
    Most people have carefully thought this process out and have determined that protecting other than ones family and self could wind up with unwanted and possible life/family destroying ramifications.
    If you are willing to take these chances, more power to you!
    Welcome to Tennessee, the patron state of shootin' stuff.--SHOOTER

  13. #42
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    Let's all keep it civil and remain calm.

    I've already shared my views on this and they boil down to "play it as it goes."

    This is a controversial subject with absolutely NO right answer.

    There are many reasons why people feel the way they do on this subject. Let's try to discuss the topic, not take after each other.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    Internet machismo, and butch talk is cheap,
    and overly abundant.

    If you are willing to get shot, get sued, lose
    your house, or go to prison for a situation
    when you don't even know the facts,
    you are welcome to it.

    I hope you guess right. If you guess wrong,
    you face the consequences alone.

    Trying to shame others because we aren't
    swinging our manly keyboards at hypothetical
    scenarios is ridiculous.




    --Travis--

    +1

    Personally I think a lot of the "hypothetical" scenarios suggested here border on the absurd!

    I've worked around violence all my life and clean up the mess. It ain't pretty and often, it isn't as it seems. I've personally dealt with well over 100 homicides in the last 28 years, and sometimes even the perpetrator. Often times as people take their last breath and are begging for help or trying to explain how it happened. Had one person shot again and murdered while I was working on them. Still have the permanent scars.

    Someone who works in an office tries and tells me what it's like on the streets usually gives me a chuckle, no disrespect intended.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    All the examples we come up with to say we shouldn't get involved fall into the 99.99999% area that I indicated that I would not act with lethal force.

    But, you have to admit, you can paint some scenarios where I would hope EVERYONE on this forum would get involved.

    For example, you are alone at the mall and go around a corner and see an active shooter systematically taking out 5 year old children with a handgun.

    Is there anyone here who would just back away and call 911 while watching small children die?

    I can tell you in that situation, I would do everything in my power to take the dude out.

    If I come around a corner and a man is beating a woman, I will execute my fastest draw on my cell phone and dial 911 while watching them closely.

    Get's back to the "play it as you see it" concept.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Real world life is strange and interesting in that what ever one can imagine can, has, or will tomorrow happen...



    There have been numerous other cases of scenarios similar to this real world case and what The Fed mentioned as a scenario.
    If you can imagine it then it very well can or has if not will happen.

    - Janq
    A: He could only hear what he thought was going on in the room, I don't think anyone suggested taking this action.

    B: No one got hurt, other than feelings in this one.

    C: I hope he is found not guilty of the charges. Maybe a little warning from the judge.

    D: Sure wouldn't want to be the guy watching the porno. Think of what the neighbor's will say now.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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