Who should I protect?

This is a discussion on Who should I protect? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Remember, carrying a gun carries far more responsibility than the gun itself. When you accept the responsibility to carry a gun on your person during ...

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Thread: Who should I protect?

  1. #46
    Member Array P991911's Avatar
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    Remember, carrying a gun carries far more responsibility than the gun itself. When you accept the responsibility to carry a gun on your person during every day life, then you must also forfeit every right to engage in a confrontation. Depending on the person, it can be a VERY DANGEROUS thing to pull out your gun just because you assume that somthing is happening the way you perceive it. Think about this scenario.

    Your walking out of wal mart and notice that there are loud noises and somone screaming for help in a parking lot, as you get closer, you see a man on his knees with his hands on his head pleading for his life. The other man now has a pistol drawn and aimed at the other mans head.

    Here is what happened.

    The man screaming for help was loading up groceries when he was approached by a homeless man with a knife. The man wielding the knife closed the 3 foot distance and then got into a tuffle with the good guy. The good guy now in physical contact with an armed assailant instinctively yells for help. The good guy manages to push off the bg and then draws and orders the man onto his knees with his hands on his head.


    Now, what would you have done? Would you have drawn your gun to "save the day," and get shot in the face 5 times by the guy with the gun thinking that you and the bg were together. Or would you rather be the shooter and take the CCWr's life because he perceived you as the threat and raised his gun at you?

    All of you Rambos and Captain Americas should and better know damn well what the situation is before you intervene. It can get you sued, put in jail, or even killed.

    I am aware of the concept of, "if I dont help others, then who will help me." That does not apply to every situation however. Like many have said, sometimes its cut and dry. 1.Guy shooting random people in a mall. 2. Man on the street attempting to rape a woman. If you happen to come upon those two scenerios, they can be dangerous to you as well. There are countless scenerious either way. The main thing is, loose the save-the-day attitude and replace it with common sense. Just cause you carry a piece doesn't mean you should never let the police handle it.

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  3. #47
    Member Array Troy Price's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    There should be no more posts from members that say that they carry to protect themselves and their families about what would you do in this situation:

    You have pretty well admitted that you will get you and your family out of the way regardless of what is happening run and hide in the corner or down the block in your car, or observe from some location and call the police and inform them of what is happening while the crime plays out.

    How can we have so many positive responses to citizens who are carrying with permits like the 80 something year old guy who shot the attacker in the Walmart, when so many of us on this forum are willing to say, well I would just call 911 and let them handle it, I am not a LEO, that isn't my wife or child. I am not a paid LEO, that isn't why I got my permit.

    Yes, we do have to observe what is happening, and not just go out guns a blazing, but come on. If people aren't willing to stand up for what is right, where would we be. If the LEO's, the military, past and present, or any other good samaritan that is out there, decided to say, hey, I am only protecting me and mine, then all of us would be in a world of trouble. It truely would be to each his own.

    Are you all willing to live in a country that is that self centered?

    I am glad Texas gives me that choice. I can and will intervene if the situation calls for it. Even though I am not being paid to, or I might have to go to court, or whatever. I don't think I could live with myself if I just sat by and watched someone die because I was worried about what the legal cost would be.

    Maybe I am stupid. I can live with that.
    Farronwolf,

    You're not stupid, and I'm glad you've given this as much thought to this as you have. You also say that you are glad that you have the choice; why don't you allow all of us the same choice?

    You start your scenario with "There should be no more posts from members that say that they carry to protect themselves and their families about what would you do in this situation".

    When I am not at work, or on the road teaching, 100% of my time is spent with my family. I have to consider them in any course of action I may take.

    Let me ask you to think about this: So there I am with my four-year old son and six-year old daughter. We're shopping and I hear a shot and see a bad guy or two. As I am drawing on him he sees me and takes a shot with his shotgun. After I shoot him I find out that both my son and daughter have absorbed some of the bad guy's 00 buck.

    How do I justify that? Am I the hero of the day? Sure, but at what price?

    You and your Bersa .380 can run towards the sound of gunfire. While you may be willing to trade your life in the defense of others I AM NOT willing to trade the safety, or lives, of my children for those that make a conscious decision to walk around life unprepared.

    If escape for my family is not possible then I will fight with every ounce of my being.

    You say "self-centered"; are you going to take care of my wife and three kids when I'm gone? I say self-reliant and self-determining. Many a good samaritan has become a dead samaritan. I'm not saying I won't won't help, I'm saying I get to decide how I will help.

    You can think what you want. I have lived most of my life in non-permissive environments; I know what happens, and can happen, in gunfights. Having survived a few I also know how a situation can go bad in the blink of an eye.

    If I happen to be alone, or with another like-minded individual, I will attempt to influence the situation, but that situation won't be a brawl in the parking lot. And I will not charge in blindly, I will evaluate the tactical situation and choose the course of action that has the highest chance of success. That is what professionals do.

    As a responsible individual with a concealed handgun you shouldn't deicide that you are going to charge into every situation. If you do someday you may find yourself on the short end of the stick being memorialized on page seven of the news paper, or the bad guy you shot may have been a UC LEO.

    If you can live, and die, with that go right ahead.
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  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    A: He could only hear what he thought was going on in the room, I don't think anyone suggested taking this action.

    B: No one got hurt, other than feelings in this one.

    C: I hope he is found not guilty of the charges. Maybe a little warning from the judge.

    D: Sure wouldn't want to be the guy watching the porno. Think of what the neighbor's will say now.
    A: And that was a near match to the scenario in question, man walking up on two lovers in an alley having vigorous scenario sex.

    B: No one got hurt, by chance alone. The potential for danger was very much there and the Save-A-Ho neighbor was wielding a very much lethal weapon even as when this hit the news it was spun as being ninja style laughable.

    C: He is and was found guilty.

    D: The citizen was featured all over the news including CNN when this was fresh and he'd said unapolegetically that he would continue to watch porn because he enjoys porn. He though would reduce his volume and/or invest in headphones though so as to not alarm others among the thin walls of his shared residence building.

    Strnage things do happen and more than once has a citizen come to what he thought was anothers rescue only to find himself the target of two annoyed attackers and/or two persons acting out a scenario themselves and/or the woman saying she could handle things with her mate only to turn and charge/sue the so called savior upon he attacking her mate, who moments prior by appearances was attacking her.
    It happens even as individuals may not be directly familiar with or recall as much being reported.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #49
    Member Array CelticWolf's Avatar
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    Protect blood, women and children.
    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8


    http://groups.myspace.com/Concealedcarry

  6. #50
    Member Array P991911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CelticWolf View Post
    Protect blood, women and children.
    What does that mean? I understand the blood part. Women and children is kinda vague. If you mean this the way I think you do and are currently walking around with a loaded gun, I think this is a recipe for disaster. The laws in some states that allow you to come to anothers aid is intended to no F you over if you absolutely positively know what is going on and use your weapon. It is not there to make you some kind of a vigilante or protector. If somones goal is to be a public guardian, then go be a cop. If I am wrong, then please feel free to ellaborate on what you mean.

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Troy, based on my first response to this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    As stated previously, I will protect myself, my family, my friends, and anyone else that I see that needs the protection. There are limited instances when deadly force is justified.

    Granted this depends on the situation, but I can't see turning my back or simply calling 911 and hoping that the person won't be dead when the LEO's get there. After all it has been stated many times on this site that the LEO's are not there to guarrantee our protection. I hope that if "me or mine" are in a situation needing assistance, someone like minded would step up to the plate. I can only offer the same thing that I would want for myself or my family.
    Quote Originally Posted by Troy Price View Post
    Farronwolf,

    When I am not at work, or on the road teaching, 100% of my time is spent with my family. I have to consider them in any course of action I may take. Agreed

    Let me ask you to think about this: So there I am with my four-year old son and six-year old daughter. We're shopping and I hear a shot and see a bad guy or two. As I am drawing on him he sees me and takes a shot with his shotgun. After I shoot him I find out that both my son and daughter have absorbed some of the bad guy's 00 buck.

    How do I justify that? Am I the hero of the day? Sure, but at what price? You don't, I never suggested that type of response

    You and your Bersa .380 can run towards the sound of gunfire. While you may be willing to trade your life in the defense of others I AM NOT willing to trade the safety, or lives, of my children for those that make a conscious decision to walk around life unprepared. Never said I was going to run to the sound of gunfire

    If I happen to be alone, or with another like-minded individual, I will attempt to influence the situation, but that situation won't be a brawl in the parking lot. And I will not charge in blindly, I will evaluate the tactical situation and choose the course of action that has the highest chance of success. That is what professionals do. Good, never suggested that one get into a brawl in the parking lot, or go in blindly.

    As a responsible individual with a concealed handgun you shouldn't deicide that you are going to charge into every situation. Never said I would.If you do someday you may find yourself on the short end of the stick being memorialized on page seven of the news paper, or the bad guy you shot may have been a UC LEO.

    If you can live, and die, with that go right ahead.
    I don't think you will ever find a post by me advocating that you play Captain America, Rambo or whomever. It all depends on the situation, maybe I have been misunderstood.

    I do however find it difficult to understand people who say "Me and Mine, period." That is their right, no doubt about it, I just can't comprehend that mindset.

    Example, school district does allow teachers to carry concealed. (ok, big stretch), or maybe students are allowed on college campus to carry concealed, bad guy comes into school and opens fire or maybe one of the students opens fire in classroom. Should that teacher, or student that is carrying only use their weapon for their own preservation? Just to allow them enough time to exit the classroom or whatever and leave the others alone with the bad guy while he keeps shooting up the place. This scenario is not far fetched when it comes to the bad guys actions.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  8. #52
    Member Array CelticWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P991911 View Post
    What does that mean? I understand the blood part. Women and children is kinda vague. If you mean this the way I think you do and are currently walking around with a loaded gun, I think this is a recipe for disaster. The laws in some states that allow you to come to anothers aid is intended to no F you over if you absolutely positively know what is going on and use your weapon. It is not there to make you some kind of a vigilante or protector. If somones goal is to be a public guardian, then go be a cop. If I am wrong, then please feel free to ellaborate on what you mean.
    If some woman or kid is being beat, raped or in serious danger. I am not trying to be superman.
    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8


    http://groups.myspace.com/Concealedcarry

  9. #53
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    Janq: So if my house is on fire you won't bring your fire extinguisher over and help???? Guess I really don't like the house that much anyway. Would you at least wake up my family so they can get out??? What are you going to do if the day come when you need CPR and the guy goes by you and says "He should have his own defibrillator" ain't gona loan him mine.

    When it comes to my side-arm, it's a play-it as needed, but if you need a hand and I'm there, it WILL be extended to ya. Just hope you know how to reach back.


    Z

  10. #54
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    Apples and Oranges guys... apples and oranges.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #55
    Member Array Geno's Avatar
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    What's wrong with these people getting their OWN concealed carry permit??? I know of quite a few who could take the time and training and expense of getting a permit but choose NOT to do so for flimsy reasons like; I don't have the time...Ya got 24 hours in the day same as me. My spouse/SO won't allow it....funny you have been hunting for years and have guns all over the place. I don't have the money for all that...cut down on the beer, pop ciggies, starbucks coffe, ballgames/concerts many miles away and also the steak and seafood dinners five nites a week. I just don't think that (SHTF) will ever happen where or when I'm around....Fine, just don't expect me to be your bodyguard or go to any kind of extensive measures to save your butt if bad does go to worse.
    Arm your own self for you and yours own self defense.

    Not saying I wouldn't save a kid to young to get a permit or an elderly or disabled person, but for a lot of situations, I'll be dialing 911 for the professionals to handle it ...when they get there.

  12. #56
    Member Array P991911's Avatar
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    Just remember one thing. Whenever you draw your own pistol, you are a target for everyone of those bad A$$ CCP holding wanna-bes trying to "do the right thing." Go ahead it's is all up to you. When you are about to intervene and not know what is going on, ask your self this. Will the BG see me, and if he does, is he some ex- special ops soldier that will put 2 in my chest and one through my brain without hesitation because he was actually defending himself in the first place and now sees you as a threat? My pistol is for myself and my family, Unless I know that without a shadow of a doubt that I am right. As far as spousal abuse cases, I will never get involved no matter what. It is between the male and female.
    Last edited by P991911; October 9th, 2007 at 02:48 PM.

  13. #57
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Guys . . . . why don't we rachett down the volume a bit, huh?

    Everyone here is "good people".

    As my last comment (yeah, right. You guys should be so lucky!), I believe that the VAST majority of members here are good people.

    Regardless of what anyone says, I don't think anyone here would stand around and watch a 5 year old get stomped to death without trying to intervene.

    Also, I don't think anyone here would see a man and woman struggling and go all Walter Middy and start blazing away at the man.

    I don't believe that we have "bad A$$ CCP holding wanna-bes" on this forum.

    If any of the good people here get into a situation requiring a life or death decision, what you will have is good people trying to do the best that they can in a bad situation.

    OK. . . . broken record time: like Chris said, "play it as you see it".
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  14. #58
    Member Array P991911's Avatar
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    I think it is time that this thread is closed. We might as well argue about whos religion is right because everyone will do what they will and they will face the consequences either way. I don't think anything else needs to be said. All aspects and scenarios have been covered and we are all arguing again.

    And..... YES, this site does have a few wanna-be commandos. To not aknowledge that is like saying there are no such things as "rotten apples."

  15. #59
    New Member Array Tardola's Avatar
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    Having been through enough scenario training to know the situation is rarely 'understood' by you and can go bad in 1 second, my planned and practiced actions are:

    1) If I can, get away without being seen.

    2) If I can't get away, take immediate cover.

    3) Don't draw to low ready or Sul unless deadly force is already legal.

    4) Don't be surprised if someone draws on your or yells "He's Got A Gun!" and is pointing at... me... if you do draw.

    5) The people you are with are your #1 concern, especially if they are dependant on you (wife, kids, etc).

    6) Most people won't remember what they see but a lot will remember what they hear. If they hear "Stop! Don't Move! Drop that weapon!" instead of "freeze, motherf___er!" it will work hugely in your favor later on when you say you were attempting to STOP A THREAT (never say KILL).

    7) If you live in the wrong area, you will be charged as a matter of course no matter how legal the shoot. Move away from those areas now if you CCW or quit carrying a gun.

    8) I'm not a tough guy, don't bother yelling at me, you cannot get me mad that way.

  16. #60
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P991911 View Post
    I think it is time that this thread is closed. We might as well argue about whos religion is right because everyone will do what they will and they will face the consequences either way. I don't think anything else needs to be said. All aspects and scenarios have been covered and we are all arguing again.

    And..... YES, this site does have a few wanna-be commandos. To not aknowledge that is like saying there are no such things as "rotten apples."
    OK....so that wasn't my last comment on the subject. . .so sue me.

    I agree that this thread has run its course but until it is closed I am required by law in the State of Confusion to continue my oral diarrhea.

    You are probably right. With over 10,000 members, there has to be some wackos lurking and possibly even posting.

    But after re-reading this thread, I don't see anything posted here that would lead me to believe that any of the posters are wanna-be commandos.

    Other than that, I guess we should just agree to disagree and move on.

    It was fun while it lasted though!
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

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