To be or Not to be a Witness. . .

This is a discussion on To be or Not to be a Witness. . . within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Its not nice. Its not "good". However, it is what it is: a survival tactic. But in the end, it is not tantamount to that ...

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Thread: To be or Not to be a Witness. . .

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array Creature's Avatar
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    Its not nice.

    Its not "good".

    However, it is what it is: a survival tactic.
    But in the end, it is not tantamount to that community in essence comitting "suicide" by not reporting crimes to the police and being witnesses? Where is the survival in that? That train of thought illustrates the decline of that community and society.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigsauer View Post
    But in the end, it is not tantamount to that community in essence comitting "suicide" by not reporting crimes to the police and being witnesses? Where is the survival in that? That train of thought illustrates the decline of that community and society.
    Ok, maybe not a survival tactic, but more of a coping tactic like drinking to avoid stress.

    It will kill you in the end even if it helps somewhat in the short term.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigsauer View Post
    But in the end, it is not tantamount to that community in essence comitting "suicide" by not reporting crimes to the police and being witnesses? Where is the survival in that? That train of thought illustrates the decline of that community and society.
    I agree- if you are willing and able to kill people on sight. Not possible in most areas where 1) the police travel in unarmored vehicles, and 2) LE has "difficulty" with any bodies showing up in the street. "800" tip lines are good; making a statement is great, just remember: the officer may or may not be wise enough/old enough/unsupervised enough not to put your name in a report. Reports are public record... you pays your money & takes your chances.

  5. #19
    Member Array broknindarkagain's Avatar
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    I've seen some iffy things happen in the past. If I was concerned about my safety, I would sit inside and call the PD. That why no one would see me talking to them.

    I'm never afraid to give the police information...and I always will if I see something.
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

    Smith & Wesson M&P9c

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Snitches

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    While i understand folk's concerns on being seen as a " snitch "
    In an ethics class long ago. Professor was talking about stages of moral development. In it he said snitches were at a high level of moral development because it was evidence that they were being accountable for their actions. Adapting the ethics of greater society inspite of pressure to stay quiet. In my term paper I disagreed. Snitches, Rats, Stool Pigeons, are criminals who rob steal deal drugs whatever and proclaim to live by a code that engenders trust amongst their fellow dirt bags. When they are caught they rat / snitch in order to avoid the consequences of their immoral conduct. The criminal who stands by the code and does his time is a more morally developed individual than the snitch. Essentially a snitch acts contrary to his stated code of ethics. The jew who collaborates with the Nazis is a snitch, the uncle tom who betrays his fellow slaves to massa is a snitch. A law abiding citizen who call the police reports crime and testifies IS NOT a snitch. They are living by the code of ethics they profess to live by. Standing up for what is right. Those who depend upon law enforcement claim to be law abiding citizens but refuse to bear witness testify file a report are actually the snitches and rats as they are living contrary to the code of ethics they profess to live by, for fear of consequences. No different morally or in conduct than the rat who testifies against their crime partner for fear of consequences. Both have the commonality of cowardice. In both cases spineless squishy maggots. The citizen snitch expects our men / women in blue to put their life on the line to keep them safe and than renders aid and comfort to the criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by SleepingZ View Post
    Drug related fight----- Just hope both sides have enough ammo to finish the job.
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    Gun clubs should have one night for CRIPS to come and shoot and another for BLOODS to come shoot and a free ammo night where both gangs can come and shoot. It is hard to see the crime when scumsbags kill scumbags
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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  7. #21
    Ex Member Array Creature's Avatar
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    Longrider wrote:
    A law abiding citizen who call the police reports crime and testifies IS NOT a snitch. They are living by the code of ethics they profess to live by. Standing up for what is right.
    Agreed. You get an A+. And TWO gold stars! Very well put.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    In an ethics class long ago. Professor was talking about stages of moral development. In it he said snitches were at a high level of moral development because it was evidence that they were being accountable for their actions. Adapting the ethics of greater society inspite of pressure to stay quiet. In my term paper I disagreed. Snitches, Rats, Stool Pigeons, are criminals who rob steal deal drugs whatever and proclaim to live by a code that engenders trust amongst their fellow dirt bags. When they are caught they rat / snitch in order to avoid the consequences of their immoral conduct. The criminal who stands by the code and does his time is a more morally developed individual than the snitch. Essentially a snitch acts contrary to his stated code of ethics.

    It depends on the reason for being a snitch. This is similar to the reason one becomes a source of information in espionage matters.

    There are a couple categories of sources:

    1. Dirven By Monetary Goals: Simple, they want cash for betraying their gov't and handing over information.

    2. Revenge: They feel betrayed for some reason and wish to take revenge.

    3. Adrenaline: Some people simply are caught up in the "thrill" and "danger". These are also the least reliable as they tend to make mistakes leading to their being compromised.

    4. Idealistic: This individual is betraying his nations trust for what he considers a "moral" reason. A Soviet who saw the corruption in the system and wanted to speed it along, another who thought that by both sides having full knowledge they could therefore avert nuclear holocaust. There could be an American who felt a religious symapthy for Isreal and betrayed information. In any case though the reason is something other than personal satisfaction or gain. If any brand of traitor or snitch could be called "moral" it would be this one. The others simply act out of personal desire. The idealist has considerred his actions, his betrayal and found them to be for "the greater good."

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigsauer View Post
    Longrider wrote:
    Agreed. You get an A+. And TWO gold stars! Very well put.
    Thanks got an A on that class too. Professor made you think. Parroting his lectures or the text back at him got a C if you were a very good parrot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Musketeer View Post
    It depends on the reason for being a snitch. This is similar to the reason one becomes a source of information in espionage matters.

    There are a couple categories of sources:

    1. Dirven By Monetary Goals: Simple, they want cash for betraying their gov't and handing over information.

    2. Revenge: They feel betrayed for some reason and wish to take revenge.

    3. Adrenaline: Some people simply are caught up in the "thrill" and "danger". These are also the least reliable as they tend to make mistakes leading to their being compromised.

    4. Idealistic: This individual is betraying his nations trust for what he considers a "moral" reason. A Soviet who saw the corruption in the system and wanted to speed it along, another who thought that by both sides having full knowledge they could therefore avert nuclear holocaust. There could be an American who felt a religious symapthy for Isreal and betrayed information. In any case though the reason is something other than personal satisfaction or gain. If any brand of traitor or snitch could be called "moral" it would be this one. The others simply act out of personal desire. The idealist has considerred his actions, his betrayal and found them to be for "the greater good."
    Huh sorry lost me. Seems those are rationalizations for an immoral act kind of like the rapist stating why he is a rapist. Some things have no grey areas. A rat or rapist may think they have an excuse or justification they would be wrong. Both are immoral acts of cowardice it is not OK to be either
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Huh sorry lost me. Seems those are rationalizations for an immoral act kind of like the rapist stating why he is a rapist. Some things have no grey areas. A rat or rapist may think they have an excuse or justification they would be wrong. Both are immoral acts of cowardice it is not OK to be either
    No. The rapist is clearly committing an act with the goal of satisfying a personal desire and has no honest pretentions of serving a greater good. Any rapist who did honetly believe their crime served a higher social function than their own physical and mental satisfaction is even more deranged than a sociopath (who does not care about social mores). The comparison between rat and rapist works for the first three types I listed but certainly not the fourth.

    In the four types I gave their is a monumental difference between number four and the other three. The first three are purely self serving motives. Revenge, profit or even personal thrill and excitement. Those first three reasons mean the traitor's actions are carried out just to please themselves.

    The fourth motivation is removed from the individual. To be an idealist means the traitor is acting for a reason believed to benifit others, one society or both, but not himself. The idealist may even take the role of traitor knowing it will not benifit himself. They may often feel true remorse for their actions, because they do have a sense of responsibility to others and not just themselves. THis is temperred by the knowledge they are perfomring a function for a greater good than themselves.

    The idealistic traitor could be a person in organized crime who either has a true change of heart (rare!) or one who enters into the organization with the goal of turning traitor to end its corrupt activities. Technically undercover police fit this model. One cannot deny that they cultivate relationships, personal and business, with criminals. They gain trust and respect but do for the purpose of betraying that trust. One who betrays trust is a traitor. The police oficer may not be a traitor to the police but he is a traitor to the society he made himself a part of. Saying anythnig less is a lie.

    I am not saying we forgive those traitors we catch who are acting against our society. Knowing why someone turns traitor is not an excuse for doing so when it harms your society. Knowing their motivations though makes both catching and if needed creating them easier though.

    There is no argument though that the idealistic traitor is at a completely different level of moral developement than those others. We don't need to agree with their morality but we should understand it.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    If you're willing and able to participate, even given all the risks to loss of family and future, then by all means do so. If you're merely able to witness and assist in that way, more power to you. But to hide and refuse to help is, in no uncertain terms, helping the bad guys win over everyone. In the long run, we all lose when nobody lifts a finger. The operative word of being a good witness is: "good". Without being it, one cannot do it.
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  12. #26
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    The ghetto culture is quite a different one that most if not all of us live in.
    Snitchs are veiwed as anybody who speaks with the "man" for anything other than the mans handouts. They really believe that they can and should solve all their issues on their own, in their gangland sort of way. (We all know this works well, just look at Detroit, D.C., L.A. and all the other thug run cities)

    Case in point, one of my informants was just shot last night, and he is circling the bowl as I type this. He dropped the dime on a petty crack dealer in his neighborhood. So, I certainly understand the hesitation to talk with police. But at the same time, I really dont feel sorry for them because they embraced this way of life.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    "Your either one of them or one of us. The scum loves the "don't snitch attitude." They are dirt, actually several layers lower, and don't deserve the air they consume."

    Bingo, when men have enough guts to stand up and be counted the vermin fade away.

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