Underground parking lot scenario

This is a discussion on Underground parking lot scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was recently in Nashville at a doctor's office. I followed the directions to their parking lot, which turned out to be underground. As I ...

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Thread: Underground parking lot scenario

  1. #1
    Member Array plus p's Avatar
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    Underground parking lot scenario

    I was recently in Nashville at a doctor's office. I followed the directions to their parking lot, which turned out to be underground.

    As I parked, I thought "what if" I was approached by two gangbangers? They are about 25 feet away when I see them, and they start saying they want to talk to me. They both have their right hand in the pocket of their coats, but no displayed weapons yet.

    I am carrying my .40 cal CCW with an extra clip. There are cars parked on both sides along the walls of the parking garage (it is full).

    I move toward cover behind the nearest car. They split - one goes on my side, and the other goes behind a car on the other wall.

    I see them both pull handguns as they move. One takes a shot at me just as I reach cover. It barely misses me.

    I know my cell phone probably won't work in this underground lot. What do I do from here?

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  3. #2
    Member Array VegasSIG's Avatar
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    Damn good question. Would it be legal to go on the offensive and neutralize one threat and move on to the next? Or would you be better off finding a defensive position and wait for a bystander, try to make an escape to the nearest exit. In that situation, I would rather go on the offensive then be a waiting sheep if it was not at all possible to escape. I look forward to hearing replies, as many on here have far better civilian tactical knowledge then myself.

    On a side note, if the cell phone doesnt work, I know most parking structures have Fire Alarm Pull Stations. Unless the FAPS is deactivated you will have a response by Police and Fire fairly quick, not to mention the noise might scare off your attackers. However you might be exposing yourself to the BG's.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plus p View Post
    I was recently in Nashville at a doctor's office. I followed the directions to their parking lot, which turned out to be underground.

    As I parked, I thought "what if" I was approached by two gangbangers? They are about 25 feet away when I see them, and they start saying they want to talk to me. They both have their right hand in the pocket of their coats, but no displayed weapons yet.

    I am carrying my .40 cal CCW with an extra clip. There are cars parked on both sides along the walls of the parking garage (it is full).

    I move toward cover behind the nearest car. They split - one goes on my side, and the other goes behind a car on the other wall.

    I see them both pull handguns as they move. One takes a shot at me just as I reach cover. It barely misses me.

    I know my cell phone probably won't work in this underground lot. What do I do from here?
    Can you avoid the situation and park somewhere else other than in the under ground lot?

    A fight avoided...is a fight avoided.

    Is their a way to park on the street giving you more visibility and room to run if you need it?

    If not, can you park right by the elevator or stair way so don't have to walk a long way?

    Do you have a surefire light? Can you use it when you get to the level you are on to check around looking for people in the area?

    Have you considered a J-frame in your coat pocket so you can have a weapon in hand as they approach you? If they go for guns, I think that's a clear indication of you being in danger of death or grave harm, so opening fire should be appropriate, and with a J in hand you can take the advantage of firing immediately.

    If confronted by people who want to "talk to you" don't stop and let them get close.

    Put something between you. If they try to flank you as indicated, tell them in "da voice" to stop. Be firm/agressive with it.

    You may be able to avoid the whole conflict with a hand on your gun in a pocket a move toward cover and hard verbal warnings, simply because they aren't looking for a gunfight, they are looking for...well...something else.

    Unless, of course...they just want to kill you (Happy thoughts...)

    If a J-frame is not an option, how about walking to your car with your weapon drawn, but under a folded coat? That way the moment you see a gun in hand you can just bring up the weapon and fire.

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    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    You're taking fire from multiple attackers and wondering whether your cell phone will work? You need to get your gun in hand and start moving toward the nearest exit. From what you laid out, you have lost visual contact, and don't know exactly where your attackers are. Why let them pin you down?

    If you're behind a car, that's great, but it's only concealment, not cover unless you're behind the engine block. I would put a lot more trust in a concrete pillar for real cover.

    As far as going on the offensive, my goal would be to get to an exit. But, if I happen to see one of them on the way or if they're between me and the door, I'm not going to wait for them to take another shot at me (provided I'm sure who it is, of course). I consider that "fighting my way out of a corner" more than "seek and destroy."
    "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
    Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

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    Member Array MyMonkey's Avatar
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    I think the actions might vary depending on what state you are in at the time honestly. In some states you have a duty to attempt a safe "retreat" if one is available in such a situation. I am certainly not a fan of those laws. However, in the event you reasonably feel a legitimate threat of serious bodily injury or death you will likely be justified in the use of lethal force.

    Personally, I would neutralize the most pressing threat first and hope that ends the altercation. Always be careful with stray shots in such a situation as ricochets are nasty in those garages. HTH

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plus p View Post
    "what if" I was approached by two gangbangers? They are about 25 feet away when I see them, and ... I see them both pull handguns as they move. One takes a shot at me just as I reach cover. What do I do from here?
    A cell phone will get you killed in this type of situation. Staying put might well do the same thing. Maintain cover while moving, if you're able. Go for the gun. Defend yourself as if your life depended on it. Specific tactics and motion will depend on the situation.

    I've experienced just such a situation, short of the firing. Two BG's approached, split up and then were coming right at me. I drew, suggested to the "leader" that he rethink the situation, and then they both fled into the darkness. Never did determine if they had specific weapons, but I'm assuming they did.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Member Array Harold Green's Avatar
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    Practical Practice

    I’m part of a local practice group, The Utah Polite Society that sets up simulations of just this sort of thing, and you’ve just given us a simulation to you at one of our next get togethers.

    Once we’ve set up the props for a scenario like this, we usually get the group together and “talk” through possible ways to approach the situation before actually doing it with live fire.

    We usually change some of the prop and threat locations around from participant to participant, while they have their eyes covered or averted. It’s interesting to see how some simple prop changes can markedly change the dynamics of the scenario. Sometimes we use moving targets, and sometimes we use reactive targets, depending on the parameters of the scenario.

    Also, we have a “Safety Officer” (SO) run the scenario who will interact with the participant. The participant can talk to his adversaries and give them voice commands. The SO will respond to him either by verbally responding as the bad guy(s) would or by telling him the action the bad guy(s) are taking. We encourage the SO to do things that are unexpected and to mess with people. The bad guys will.

    We then have each participant shoot though the scenario with his every day carry equipment and employ the tactics they think will work best for them. Sometimes we set up the scenario over again using Airsoft guns and force-on-force simulations.

    After each participant’s runs through the scenario, we have the whole group do an after-action evaluation of his performance, and determine if he was likely to have survived the encounter.

    Here are some general observations from doing these types of simulations.

    Quite often, the approaches formulated by talking through the scenario aren’t the ones that work the best.

    A lot of things will come to light that you hadn’t even thought of considering, when you run the simulations. A lot of these are things that could very easily get you killed if you don’t address them properly.

    There is almost always more than one “good” solution to a simulation, and some of these solutions can be quite different.

    Most of the folks who shoot with us have made modifications to their carry gear and to the approaches they plan to use in potentially lethal situations, based on shortcomings they’ve uncovered by participating in these scenarios.

    I have a comment about the J-frame that I’d like to share. In a situation like this, if you have a J-frame in your pocket, you’re putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage, if it’s your only gun. It will allow you to get off your first shot more quickly, but you’ll be putting yourself at a tactical disadvantage for the remainder of the encounter, if the first couple of shots don’t resolve the situation. It’s been our experience that simulations of these kinds of situations run into much higher round counts and that practical accuracy becomes much more important than you would think by just talking through the scenario. Most of us have made sure we can quickly deploy our primary carry gun by careful equipment selection, and by practicing with that equipment to develop our skill with it.
    "A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does, he needs it very badly!" -- Sir Winston Churchill

    "He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that is where he is." -- James Thurber

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    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
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    if I found myself in that situation i would check the cellphone just in case and if does not have reception then I'd at least remember the time because later it'd be good to have once the cops show up. I'd lay on the ground and see where their feet were at, see where they were hiding at and then try to walk away while taking cover against the wall and in between the cars while facing the two guys' locations. If they shoot then I return fire, if they don't I get above ground, cover the exits and call the cops :D
    I am sworn to protect the Constitution of the U.S.A. from all threats both foreign and domestic.

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    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    Take cover behind one of the numerous concrete poles
    keep eyes on the threats.
    move towards the door

    If you're in one of the many medical offices in Nashville...then you're screwed because you're in a "gun free zone" so if you're following the letter of the law, your gun is in the car.

    now...if you're in a medical office that isn't posted, then your gun should be in your hand, hidden from view while scanning for threats...and act according to what transpires.
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

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    I would imagine the BG on the side I'm on is looking for my feet. The one on the opposite wall is waiting for me to show a body part he can shoot at.

    It sounds simple to say "Work your way to the exit." That's what I'm asking how to do!!

    If I move along the wall, the BG on my side will see my feet and know where I am. I can't move anywhere into the open, because the BG on the other side will nail me.

    One option would be to go to the ground, and shoot it out under the cars with the BG on my side of the parking garage - I don't like that option, because I have no cover. I suppose even the tires are just concealment, and not cover...

    Now, how do I work my way to an exit?

    Thanks for your input!

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    Move from cover to cover using the concrete poles to cover your body and your feet.
    keep low...duck walking..or running from pole to pole all the time moving to the doors. You wouldn't be exposed for more than a couple of seconds, if your low and quick you shouldn't be that much of a target

    I'm picturing this happening at Centennial Medical Center or St Thomas here in Nashville :-)
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

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    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    I think they'll be looking for you, not your feet. They're going to be agitated, looking around for witnesses, etc.
    Move low and fast, duck walking from car to pole, to car, to pole...keeping your head on a swivel watching for the BGs, and to warn other people who might wander into the situation...or for a security guard to yell to.

    I'm picturing this happening at either St Thomas or Centennial medical center here in Nashville. Both have large underground parking areas that would be prime hunting grounds for BGs
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

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    I believe it might have been St. Thomas, but I'm not sure.

    Thinking more about it, I doubt the BGs would stick around for a prolonged gunfight. After 1 or more shots were fired, they would probably haul a**, knowing someone would hear the shots and call the police.

    It's still worthwhile to think about though. The more situations you think through, the better chance you'll have if one of them happens to you.

    Gangbangers are pretty bold these days. I was held up in my driveway in broad daylight by two that followed me home from a bank.

    Don't think it will never happen to you - I have had friends held up and shot at ATMs, attempted robbery at a post office at night while dropping off letters (not a good idea!), and other crimes we think will never happen to us.

    I will post more scenarios as time allows, and hope to participate in others here.

    Be safe

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    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    Oh I always play the what if game. Heh...I was driving to Greenbriar over the weekend and wondered what I'd do if the back door on the panel truck in front of my was to open up to show a bunch of BGs with AKs to start shooting up the interstate.
    I think the only reason that popped in there was from watching Bad Boys, and taking my PS90 to the range
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

  16. #15
    New Member Array kurk's Avatar
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    My guess is once they see you are armed, they will be heading for the exits. Cowards don't want prey that fights back!!

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