Quicky Mart

This is a discussion on Quicky Mart within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by plus p I asked Ayoob about this exact scenario, but with me in line to pay when I see the BGs car ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plus p View Post
    I asked Ayoob about this exact scenario, but with me in line to pay when I see the BGs car pull up to the door, and see their masks - knowing what's gonna happen when they get out of the car.

    I asked him should I shoot as soon as they come in the door, catching them by surprise? He said NO!!! So far, it's only a robbery. If I were to take it to a lethal level and someone else in the store got killed, I would be charged with their murder!!

    If I were already in the back of the store, I would conceal myself and be a good witness. If one of them saw me and started back there, telling me to come out, I would throw my money clip with my "mugger money" toward him, and tell him it's all I have, and to leave me alone...(of course, my firearm would already be in my hand).

    If he continued toward me after he had my money, I would assume I was in grave danger of death or crippling bodily harm, and shoot him until he was no longer capable of being a threat to me.

    I would then do whatever I had to do, depending on what his cohorts in crime did from there.
    Although in some states the BGs would get charged for the murder of anyone you killed, since they initiated the consequences with their illegal behavior.
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  3. #17
    Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
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    Shooting is to be avoided if at all possible. I don't know how many times I've seen the mother of a BG shot and killed by police sobbing into a camera saying how her son was a good boy that was trying to turn his life around. (She never explains why a good kid would want to turn his life around in the first place.) Then a sympathetic DA or other lawyer takes up her cause and things get very unpleasant. Next thing you know, you're being portrayed some crazed vigilante. But I would also hate to see a clerk get killed when I could have stopped it. I would try to be a good witness to a robbery but try to prevent a murder.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #19
    Member Array S3ymour's Avatar
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    All very valid points, but in the end it really comes down to why you carry. Are you there to save everyone, or do you carry to protect yourself and family...I am not a hero. I carry to defend my family and however sad it may be, I want to go home at the end of the day. My goal is to do that at whatever costs. If that entails avoiding a situation until my life is threatened so be it. Each person is responsible for their own life, and they should think about that when they wake up each morning, I am not going to protect a stranger when they failed to make the decision to protect themselves. I don't consider myself a coward, but I am practical. I suppose then again, in those 3 seconds that I have to make a decision, the situation may cause me to react in a way that I don't expect. I train to survive, and nothing more....

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array BigEFan's Avatar
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    Some very good questions are raised above, but in the end, I prefer to act with much discretion here.

    I would try to find the best location to fire on the BG. That location would include the best cover and concealment as possible yet keep the BG in the line of sight and the bystanders neither in the line of nor down range of the target. From that position I take a wait and see. If all he wants is the money, let him have it and leave. If he appears like he is about to fire, take a shot if you have a good one.
    Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!

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  7. #21
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    I'll keep it simple, if you want to be the hero and start shooting over a few dollars that are not yours in the first place, please turn in your permit now as you did not pay attention to your classes.
    Your pistol is to protect you and yours. If you cannot articulate self defense or the defense of life, dont even think about it.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'll keep it simple, if you want to be the hero and start shooting over a few dollars that are not yours in the first place, please turn in your permit now as you did not pay attention to your classes.
    Your pistol is to protect you and yours. If you cannot articulate self defense or the defense of life, dont even think about it.
    There was only one person in my class, me, and the instructor, so I paid attention pretty well. Texas must not have to same laws as your state.

    As the OP put in the scenario.
    Lone male with a firearm to the clerk.
    This is both well within the law in Texas, and defense of life as you state.

    Do you wait till the BG shoots the clerk and then decide to take action? That is too late in my opinion. If your intent is no action unless your involved or yours, that is one thing, but to state that someone is out of line by acting within the limits of their state law or that they should turn in their CHL because they didn't pay attention in class is simply wrong and misguided in my opinion.

    There are probably as many reasons why people would act, as there are reasons why people wouldn't act. I am not going to think people who wouldn't act are cowards, just like I don't think people who would get involved are trying to be a hero.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #23
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    Just because its within the law does not make it a wise move.
    Statistically speaking, nobody will get shot during a robbery. There are tons of other indicators to look for right before a BG takes drastic measures. Of course there is always an exception to every rule, but they are just that... exceptions.

    Also, your instructor should have taught that action is always faster than reaction...the BG already has the drop. You’re risking the clerks’ life more by taking a shot at that point. Unless your an expert marksman capable of a guaranteed CNS hit with no muscle reflex from the BG, please don’t try and save me if I'm in that situation. I'll roll the dice the other way.

    All I'm saying, is if you start blasting away, you just started a gun fight over what? A couple of hundred dollars of their insured money? Is that really worth all the garbage your about to go through now? Do you really think Mr. 7-11 wishes for his customers to shoot up his store no matter the reason or what Texas law says? Don’t you think that any gun play no matter the outcome is going to cost the company far much more money than a robber would have made off with?


    Just some points to ponder.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #24
    Member Array robinsonre's Avatar
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    I would have to draw, hang back, take cover, dial 911, and be a good witness for starters.

    If the BG makes it clear he's going to start shooting people (particularly me) I would engage.
    "Life exists at a level of complexity almost beyond our ability to comprehend. It's a well known fact that if you try to take apart a cat to see how it works one of the first things you have on your hands is a non-working cat" - Douglas Adams

    "All things are governed by law" - Hippocrates

  11. #25
    Member Array steve63's Avatar
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    I think I'm going with hang back and be a good witness. If he starts firing indiscriminately, then you will have to engage to save your life.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plus p View Post
    I asked Ayoob about this exact scenario, but with me in line to pay when I see the BGs car pull up to the door, and see their masks - knowing what's gonna happen when they get out of the car.

    I asked him should I shoot as soon as they come in the door, catching them by surprise? He said NO!!! So far, it's only a robbery. If I were to take it to a lethal level and someone else in the store got killed, I would be charged with their murder!!
    WHAT?!

    I can't think of how many times I have read that it is permissible to use deadly physical force to defend against forcible robbery. Guys getting out of a car wearing masks, carrying weapons, entering a store to rob it... I would have said that's a justification for armed defense.

    I would consider it lucky to have seen it coming and start taking out badguys before they even know there's force being employed. Not sure where Ayoob is coming from when he says you'd be charged with the murder of other victims. YOU are not the one "escalating" force; this is a situation where the force is already... uh, in force.

    All of that said, I have a hard time imagining myself wanting to put myself in harm's way for the convenience store clerk. Sure, I know they have families just like anyone else. But what else do we know about them?:

    - they knowingly accept a very dangerous job
    - they knowingly work for companies that tell them NOT to defend themselves, and they don't tell the companies where to stick the job
    - they don't, generally, know or care to know how to fight back
    - they don't, generally, arm themselves even in spite of company policy
    - they wouldn't, probably, put themselves in front of a criminal's gun to protect me

    What better way to get the argument for armed self-defense across than by having to tell the police, and the news media, "Yeah, I was armed; but aren't you always telling us to just give the bad guys what they want, and they'll take it and leave us alone? Aren't you always telling us that fighting back only increases the chances that we'll get hurt? Aren't you always telling us that our money and jewelry aren't worth dying for, so we should just hand it over?"

    I think that posing questions like that when there is a sheet over the clerk's body might be especially poignant, and compelling.

    Yes, it's too bad that the poor clerk will have to be sacrificed in order to convince other people that it's best to be armed, alert, and ready and willing to fight, but if it saves just one life...

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinsonre View Post
    I would have to draw, hang back, take cover, dial 911, and be a good witness for starters.

    If the BG makes it clear he's going to start shooting people (particularly me) I would engage.
    Maybe my previous post got a little smarmy and overengineered, but this kind of conjecture gets me riled up with righteous indignation.

    Robinsonre, your post pretty accurately describes what I would most likely do.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Just because its within the law does not make it a wise move.
    Statistically speaking, nobody will get shot during a robbery.
    What kind of ridiculousness is this??

    SOMEBODY gets shot in some robberies, do they not?!

    What is the use of "statistically" to the person who is shot and killed even after he has given the robber what he wants?

    Maybe you should have said, "Statistically speaking, it's unlikely that anyone will get shot in the average robbery." I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's more what you meant. It still does not address that you have NO REASON to think, when a gun is pointed at someone in a criminal act, that the person holding it plans to spare the life of the person he's pointing it at.

    Let me ask you this, Sixto: If you were standing there behind the aisle as in this scenario, and it was your wife at the counter being robbed, would you still be so happy to ride along with that "statistic" you (almost) cited? "Oh, we have nothing to worry about; statistically, no one gets shot in robberies!"

    I'm sorry, I think that your posts to farronwolf were pompous, especially where you start telling him he ought to turn in his concealed carry permit just because he doesn't have the same view of defending life as you do. Evidently, you wouldn't defend the life unless it was your own, or maybe your family's. That's your prerogative. Not all of us see it that way.

    There are tons of other indicators to look for right before a BG takes drastic measures. Of course there is always an exception to every rule, but they are just that... exceptions.
    Those indicators are foolproof, are they?
    And those exceptions... they matter quite a bit to the people who are bitten by them, don't they?
    How can you so casually brush them off?

  15. #29
    Member Array broknindarkagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    - they knowingly accept a very dangerous job
    - they knowingly work for companies that tell them NOT to defend themselves, and they don't tell the companies where to stick the job
    - they don't, generally, know or care to know how to fight back
    - they don't, generally, arm themselves even in spite of company policy
    - they wouldn't, probably, put themselves in front of a criminal's gun to protect me
    peacefuljeffrey, I just have to say something about this.

    I managed a gas station for quite some time. I started out on the bottom of the chain as a CSR and worked my way up. When I first started the job, I asked what his thoughts were on carrying while working. He told me there is no problem with it and that he carried himself. Shortly after I started, I was carrying every day at work (AZ is open carry, no license needed).

    As far as defending an innocent person, I can't see myself having a problem with it. If one of my customers were in harms way, I would do what I could to defend them without loss of my life or theirs.
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    i think i would wait for dirty harry(callahan)to come back and complain about
    his coffee being too sweet. at the least call 911 from some form of cover.
    to many things could go wrong. ofcourse if bg starts shooting so do i
    (SHERIFF BUFORD T. JUSTICE) "what the hell is
    the world coming too"

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