Quicky Mart

[Cupcake]

The problem is not defending the clerk. Ther problem is that the BG has a gun on the clerk and the odds are that he'll take the money and go if you do nothing. Now if you shoot joe scumbag while his gun is on the clerk, there is a real good chance that he'll pull his trigger out of either anger or just from being startled. At this point you have made it MORE LIKELY that the clerk will get shot. Not to mention that you can't shooot the guy from behind, because the clerk is on the other side of him. You will likely have to approach from the side where you expose yourself before you can get a clear shot, otherwise there is also a fair chance that YOU will shoot the clerk. As Sixto said, there are other signs to look for that this particular idiot is going to use violence rather thatn take the money and leave. Was Sixto a little pompous in his demand for anyone wanting to play Captain America to turn in their license? Perhaps, but not too far out of line. Again, he said to turn it in if you plan on starting shooting to protect a few corporate dollars. Most likely less than $50. Don't turn a simple robbery into a gunfight.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[SIXTO]

What kind of ridiculousness is this??

The truth, based on years of study, experiance and expertise in the subject matter.

SOMEBODY gets shot in some robberies, do they not?!

Yes, like I said there are exceptions to every rule

What is the use of "statistically" to the person who is shot and killed even after he has given the robber what he wants?

The key question your missing is, is violence more likely to occur with innocent victims if I act?

Maybe you should have said, "Statistically speaking, it's unlikely that anyone will get shot in the average robbery." I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's more what you meant. It still does not address that you have NO REASON to think, when a gun is pointed at someone in a criminal act, that the person holding it plans to spare the life of the person he's pointing it at.

Dont you think its pompous to put a spin on something I posted and try to change the meaning or add to what was said? I do. I dont assume anything in these situations, its just a matter of weighing the options and taking the best course of action for the given situations.

Let me ask you this, Sixto: If you were standing there behind the aisle as in this scenario, and it was your wife at the counter being robbed, would you still be so happy to ride along with that "statistic" you (almost) cited? "Oh, we have nothing to worry about; statistically, no one gets shot in robberies!"

Thats a different scenario than the one we are talking about. However to answer your question, I still wouldnt be pompous enough to think I can make a CNS shot and turn the lights with no muscle reaction on a BG while the gun is pointed at my wife. I carry a pistol, not a precision rifle as my CCW. Again, the theme here is being smarter than what we are fighting against. If tactics allow me to take a shot with low risk to others, then sure, I'd do it. But that wasnt provided for in the given scenario.

I'm sorry, I think that your posts to farronwolf were pompous, especially where you start telling him he ought to turn in his concealed carry permit just because he doesn't have the same view of defending life as you do. Evidently, you wouldn't defend the life unless it was your own, or maybe your family's. That's your prerogative. Not all of us see it that way.

My post wasnt directed at farronwolf, or anyone else for that matter. If it was, I would have quoted one of his in my first reply. It was generally speaking. For the record, I do have the same view of defending life. I do go out everyday and defend strangers lives. I've been shot at and even shot once defending others. In fact, this really angers me. You have been around here long enough to know what I do, I make no secret of it here. I put on a bullet proof vest, my gun and other tools everyday in the defense of others. My three year old knows what a press check is, and asks me everyday if I did one as I head out the door. I think that is the child of someone who defends law and life everyday. Sometimes, I go vestless and gunless by myself into areas most would not even drive through a 50 mph. Why? To defend law and life. Taking my tools that would save my life might jeopardize inncocent people... so I dont take them. I think it pompous in the greatest severity to assume that I would not defend someone given the chance. Please dont tell me or assume what my views are.

My points made are just to make one think through their actions and see the possible consequences. Sometimes the hero choices are not the best choices tactically speaking. This is real life, not the movies... and sometimes you just have to roll the dice. I say people with a permit should make smart bets.


Those indicators are foolproof, are they?
And those exceptions... they matter quite a bit to the people who are bitten by them, don't they?
How can you so casually brush them off?

Yeah, they pretty much are fool proof. You and I may not be, but the indicators are. The exceptions do matter quite a bit to those bitten, thats why I'm arguing for us not to be foolish with our actions and set off the chain reaction... over a couple of dollars. In my view, casually brushing off everything taught to me and I've taught to others over 15 years of being in this business would be to start a shootout in a quicky mart when statistics point to the robber taking a small amount of money and a few packs of cigs and leaving... would be foolish.



If you are capable of stopping a crime in progress, I say great.... do it. But if the BG already has the drop and has a innocent person at gun point... its time to slow down a rethink tactics.

[BigEFan]

Personal attacks are not helping those of us who are trying learn from this thread.

Can't we all just get along!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Captain Crunch]

Personal attacks are not helping those of us who are trying learn from this thread.

Excellent observation.

I will second that.

[SIXTO]

Personal attacks are not helping those of us who are trying learn from this thread.

Can't we all just get along!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Personal attacks? Where? I hope everyone has their big girl panties on reading any of my posts... nothing I post is meant as a personal attack. I may be direct or even harsh, but so is the real world.

I took nothing as a personal attack that anyone else posted. Yeah, it P.O. me, but it wasnt taken personal. I'm not loosing sleep or sitting here crying in my beer. Speaking of beer, I'll buy anybody who debates with me on here a beer anytime... its some good entertainment /therapy for me.

[GHFLRLTD]

776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

In this situation, I would operate on the assumption that the display of a weapon shows capability and the indication that it would be used to carry out the robbery indicates the intention to do so at their discretion.

Tactically, I would work in three ways simultaneously:

1. Avoid having the robber becoming aware of my presence.
2. Get behind any usable cover/concealment that makes operational sense.
3. Line up and take the shot - as the Supremes (aka SCOUS) would say - with all deliberate speed.

As long as the robber is in the area, and brandishing the weapon, the rules above apply. No warnings...

[farronwolf]

Personal attacks? Where? I hope everyone has their big girl panties on reading any of my posts... nothing I post is meant as a personal attack. I may be direct or even harsh, but so is the real world.

I took nothing as a personal attack that anyone else posted. Yeah, it P.O. me, but it wasnt taken personal. I'm not loosing sleep or sitting here crying in my beer. Speaking of beer, I'll buy anybody who debates with me on here a beer anytime... its some good entertainment /therapy for me.

I prefer a good stout beer personally.

Good honest debate over issues is a good thing. Sixto stated his opinion as he has developed from his experience. Fine by me.

I stated what Texas law says on the issue for fellow Texans. Take either one or leave either one. If you read my post I never committed to what I would do in the scenario, only offering a video that breaks with Sixto's and the statistics on robbery, and what is legal in the state of Texas.

It all depends on the situation. I think all scenarios boil down to that.

[SIXTO]

I prefer a good stout beer personally.

Good honest debate over issues is a good thing. Sixto stated his opinion as he has developed from his experience. Fine by me.

I stated what Texas law says on the issue for fellow Texans. Take either one or leave either one. If you read my post I never committed to what I would do in the scenario, only offering a video that breaks with Sixto's and the statistics on robbery, and what is legal in the state of Texas.

It all depends on the situation. I think all scenarios boil down to that.

Indeed. A debate is a excellent way to learn from each other. Thats why I spend so much time here.

I do think this is or should be more of a tactics debate rather than a legal one. To me, it doesnt matter what Texas, Ohio or Nevada says I can do... I'm going to what needs to be done if there is a threat to me or my family's lives or well being. Everything else is secondary.

On the issue of tactics, lets assume we are good to shoot the BG...there is a huge tactic to use that nobody has brought up...

[farronwolf]

Based on the original post, the perp doesn't know your there.

Some really rude comment directed at the perp after your gun is drawn and your in a clear position to fire on the perp, would very likely divert his attention away from the clerk and to you, allowing for a clear shot on the perp. Thus putting him down swiftly, saving the taxpayers lots of money and the saving him from a spend time in a cold prison cell.

I definately ain't buying him a beer (the perp that is) because he didn't engage in debate.

[SIXTO]

Based on the original post, the perp doesn't know your there.

Some really rude comment directed at the perp after your gun is drawn and your in a clear position to fire on the perp, would very likely divert his attention away from the clerk and to you, allowing for a clear shot on the perp. Thus putting him down swiftly, saving the taxpayers lots of money and the saving him from a spend time in a cold prison cell.

I definately ain't buying him a beer because he didn't engage in debate.

Yeah, he doesnt know I'm there... but he has a gun pointed at the clerk.

I was looking for the distraction, but I'd consider tossing a can of Spam to get him to turn away from the clerk, and that still wouldnt give away my position right away, and it would buy me some time to make my next move.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Clear, unobstructed view of the bad guy, insure that the area behind the bad guy is clear of individuals, then deal with the situation as is normal and expected with armed bad guys.

[peacefuljeffrey]

peacefuljeffrey, I just have to say something about this.

I managed a gas station for quite some time. I started out on the bottom of the chain as a CSR and worked my way up. When I first started the job, I asked what his thoughts were on carrying while working. He told me there is no problem with it and that he carried himself. Shortly after I started, I was carrying every day at work (AZ is open carry, no license needed).

As far as defending an innocent person, I can't see myself having a problem with it. If one of my customers were in harms way, I would do what I could to defend them without loss of my life or theirs.

I am glad you were able to carry on your job.

I do not mean to imply that the lives of these people are worthless; far from it.

But TO ME, their lives are not worth what MY life is worth TO ME. So I will not be jeopardizing my own life to save theirs--particularly not when I have the understanding that they have to know their job is dangerous and have taken no precaution to be able to defend it.

In the long run, for me it comes down to the question: Why should I take saving their life more seriously than they take saving their life?

[peacefuljeffrey]

Was Sixto a little pompous in his demand for anyone wanting to play Captain America to turn in their license? Perhaps, but not too far out of line. Again, he said to turn it in if you plan on starting shooting to protect a few corporate dollars. Most likely less than $50. Don't turn a simple robbery into a gunfight.

My problem with what Sixto said was that he made it sound unequivocal.

Any "simple robbery" can turn into an EXECUTION in its last few seconds.

If someone makes the supposition that Sixto does, that all the bad guy wants is to take the money and leave (as in, leave witnesses) -- what happens if he is wrong? He won't find out until that fatal shot that hey, after all, this is the crook who does shoot compliant victims! Oopsie!

If a gun is ever pointed at me, I am not going to wait until I see a bad guy's facial expression change, or see the tendon in his forearm start to flex, before I exercise my right to end the threat he poses to me.

[SonofASniper]

I think the short version of what Sixto is saying is get rid of the "John Wayne Syndrome". It will cause more harm than good.

Sixto, is the tactic you are referring to having the patience to wait for the BG to shift his aim away from the clerk? That being under the original assumption that the BG is not aware of your presence.


PeacefulJeffery, I may be misunderstanding some of your posts. Are you really ascerting that people who work retail jobs don't take their lives seriously, or don't value their lives?

[peacefuljeffrey]

What I'm asserting is simply that I recognize a difference between those who take steps to prepare for defending their lives, and those who don't.

When I see someone who drives around on highways in a motor vehicle and doesn't wear a seatbelt, even despite the abundance of understanding that car crash survivability skyrockets with their use, I do indeed think that they don't take their lives as seriously as I do mine. They may think they do, but objectively, there is something missing from their valuation of their own lives if they don't do simple, available things to safeguard them.

Carrying a defensive weapon and knowing how to use it is part of that. Those who don't do so, are maybe not negligent about their own lives, but they are certainly less serious than they could be.