Subway Car scenario
here it is: you've just gotten off of work, and you are in the subway headed home. you get in the train car, along with dozens of other people. there are approx. 30 other people in the car with you; not too crowded, plenty of seats to choose from. the line you take home is an express line, so it makes limited stops, and the next one isn't for another ten minutes. sharing the car with you is a man who has begun ranting, and waving his fists at people. you can't tell if he's homeless or not, or on drugs, but you can see he's visibly angry and unstable. he accosts a black woman, knocking her phone out of her hand, because she threatened to dial 911. he then gets in her face and screams racial obscenities, and threatens to "lynch" her. she moves away, and leaves for the next train car. he puts his hands in his pockets, continuing his behavior. he then turns his attention to you, and starts to scream about how he hates you and everything about you, and how he wants to kick your behind. you tell him, in no uncertain terms, to keep away.
on your person is your concealed firearm, OC spray, and a knife; let's assume you're legal to carry all of these items. you also have a cell phone. if the deranged man failed to back up, what would your response be? i took this scenario from another forum, and i was a bit surprised and disappointed in many of the responses. my own response was: i would repeat my warning to him, and take a defensive position. if he kept advancing, i'd warn him that i was about to spray him with OC. if he keeps coming, he gets peppered. if he still advanced, i'd put as much distance between us as possible. if he took his hands from his pockets, and i concluded he was unarmed, i'd attempt a restraint, or other physical response. only, and i mean only, if i saw that he was armed would i draw and use a firearm.
i pose this question because many of the responses to my response were very critical; many were of the mind to give one verbal warning, then shoot. just wondering what people here thought, and if i deserved the criticism.
I would try to trigger an emergency or police alarm if one was available and call 911. I would continuously repeat my verbal warnings until this man actually begins his attack on me.
Spray once with OC spray, if attack continues, spray again. If attack continues, spray until no spray is left.
However, if the attack became more dangerous and life threatening, I would then shot to stop the threat.
In that situation, I would try to ignore him, but remain wary of what is going on. If he continues, I would call 911, and then if that continues, I would warn and then spray. I feel that too often people feel that a word justifies the use of deadly force and it does not. I was taught by my father that it is a last resort. Always try to de-esculate the situation first, then handle it appropriately if that fails. The one thing that always sticks out in my mind is "If I fire my gun, what is the worst that can happen?" The truth is, any time you brandish your gun, be prepared to go to court. You have to demonstrate that you life or anothers was in danger and that the use of force was justified. As I said....last resort. I'm not going to risk going to prison because a crazy guy was ranting about me or those around me, until I feel that I have no options but to fire upon him, I'm not going to use that kind of force.
***Note-the only bad thing about the spray on the subway would be that everyone in that car is going to end up with some of that spray affecting them. I've been maced, and it is not fun, but if it saves a life...
I am not a fan of OC in confined spaces, but it beats shooting someone. I don't think I would give the second warning though. I would spray if he ignored the first.
I would mind my own business for a good part of the time until he got out of hand.
Just cause he had his hand in his pocket, doesn't mean he is about to pull out a gun. Its a possibility and you need to be aware of it, but how many people from day to day do you see with their hands in their pockets?
When he hit the phone out of the ladies hand, thats when I would intervene. I would be kind of uneasy of using OC since it is a small confined space. Everyone in the car, including me would get a nice dose of the OC. I've been hit with it before, and it does not feel good at all. Even catching the mist of it is kind of miserable.
I would warn him to calm down or I would mace him. If he didn't comply, I would give him a nice spray.
At that point, if he started advancing towards me I would try to make distance while giving him more verbal warnings. If he did not stop, I would pull my weapon and give him one last verbal warning. If he didn't fix his act real quick I would open fire.
At this point he seems pretty determined to cause harm. He was OCd, he assulted someone, and he has his hands in his pocket possibly on a weapon.
911, pepper spray, then and only then, drop him like a rabid dog!
Several questions---1 are you seated or standing. 2 How big is he?
If I was seated, and he was considerably smaller than me, I would give him a verbal warning, if that failed then a swift kick to the "boys". If that did not get his attention, OC him. I don't think I would be on the phone, I would be wanting to pay full attention to him. Hopeful by now the 10 minute ride would be up, and I could get off, then call 911. Would I shoot???? well if he left no other option, then yes. :buttkick:
I think your response is good. Spray if you have it avoid having to shoot someone if possible. Shooting would be a last resort. If I have a gun and a knife, and have to use one, the knife will remain in my pocket or carrier that is a given.
Like Sleepingz suggested, your position and size in relation to his position and size makes a big difference. If I were 140 and he was 250 that would, be one thing. If he was 140, and me being a tad over 200, unless he has a weapon, I think I could resist for the next 10 minutes or so until we got to the next stop.
Good thing I don't live anywhere near places they have subways. :smile:
I agree with most of everything said, I am only like 135 soaking wet, so most guys are going to have that advantage over me, but I'm not going to pull my gun until he has shown me that he wants to do more then talking. I would also OC first.Then as a last resort, if he pulled a knife or whatever, then I would draw and give him a warning, depending on the distance.
In a train car, your going to be close, very close, especially if he is being "in your face" and all. Drawing your gun gets sketchy when your nose to nose as well as being in a confined space with 30 or so people. Hopefully you can avoid it until you or him get off at the next stop. I would hope someone else would jump into it, so he can see a number advantage against him and just cool it.
Jodie Foster shot him and walked away.
Ends there for him. I won't be waiting for him to "turn his attention to me" as I will already have his total and complete attention. If he is still conscious that is. To many variables to articulate any one course of action, but I'm flexible.
Originally Posted by jahwarrior72
Once he began ranting I would have started moving towards him. OC in a train car is not really an option for me. It will affect all including me and I don't want that. The gun isn't a primary option either. Hands, knees and elbows should work well enough. I am going to do my best to stomp a mud hole in him. Failing that, hopefully someone else will step up and eventually stomp a mud hole in this guy.
By that time 911 should have been called and the train can stop at the next station to remove the players and we can all give our statements. After that I'll probably get a lawyer to prepare for the inevitable because I'm sure I violated someone's civil rights, I probably owe the idiot for stomping him and if I'm lucky I may even get a thank you from someone who was accosted, but likely not. I should be able to log on to DC.com and find a youtube link to the event at any rate. :22a:
Why not do what the woman did?... leave.
From the sound of the scenario, this guy had been raging for enough time to get people concerned and pulling out their cell phones. This is plenty of time for you to realize that the situation could get out of hand, get on your feet, and reposition yourself.
I'm not saying abandon the woman being accosted, but there's no reason you can't put yourself near the door and get your own phone out. I can dial blind behind my leg, can't you?
That's it. Keep your firing lanes in mind, and watch the situation closely. You're not a cop, and you don't have the authority or responsibility to restrain the man for making threats. The woman apparently has enough sense to leave when she's threatened. You would be wise to position yourself to do the same.
If he gets violent, pull out a weapon, or starts to actually hurt someone, the dynamics change drastically, and there would be shots fired. Until that point, he's just a nuisance to be watched and avoided.
Depending on the law of his state he may For instance in texas that would be a breach of peace and under state law a private person may arrest for it.
Originally Posted by Bob The Great
OC in a confined area is not going to be a good idea. In this guys state of mind it probably do nothing other than make him mad and disable everyone else, including you.
911 and know you have probably 10 minutes of trying to keep from doing anything more than talk.
If he takes no actions that put you in fear of your life or physical well being or that of those around you, keep you gun out of the scenario.
Far too many folks new to ccw seem to think they can shoot just because someone is, in their opinion, a slimeball.
You are no more justified to employ the use of deadly force than a LEO is. In other words, if an LEO would not be justified in shooting someone, neither are you!
Bob, you and I are once again in complete agreement. +50 to you.
You have no duty to reatreat but you are in a car with 30 other people. That's a lot of taken space and if you're responsible for every round that leaves the tube? I'm no hero. I'll retreat. I don't carry OC. He's just a nuisance for now. But again, like Bob said, once he starts using weapons or really physically attacking someone... the situation changes.